Insomnia (w/ Dave Lester)

Eli Price (00:38.338)
Hello everyone and welcome to the Establishing Shot podcast where we do deep dives into directors and their filmographies. We are here on episode 19 of the podcast and we're covering the third film in Christopher Nolan's filmography today. Really getting rolling in our Christopher Nolan series. So if you're...

If you're joining us for the first time, welcome. You know, I always recommend going back and starting from the beginning, if that's your thing. If you wanna kind of watch through the movies with the podcast, that's a fun way to do it. Or if you just like this movie and wanna hear what we have to say about it, that's awesome too. Yeah, we're covering Insomnia today and...

Yeah, I have a new guest on the podcast today, Dave Lester. Yeah, Dave, welcome. I'm excited to have you on.

Dave Lester (01:41.039)
Eli, it is so great to be here. I am enjoying this podcast, especially just listen to the episode on Asteroid City, which I just watched with my wife, Michelle. And what an intriguing movie and just the discussion actually made me like the movie more.

Eli Price (01:50.199)
Yeah.

Eli Price (01:57.342)
Oh, good. Yeah. Yeah, that's always really good to hear. Honestly, like having the discussions usually make me like the movie that we're discussing more. You know, I always like the whoever I have on always has like some insight that I like had never thought of that like makes me appreciate something in the film more. So, yeah, that's awesome to hear. Yeah, Asteroid City was for sure one of those movies that like

needs more than one watch. Just a lot going on there.

Dave Lester (02:30.663)
Yes. I have just seen it once and I don't want to retread on your old episode, but when I first got done watching it, I'm kind of, you know, I mean, I recognize it was a good movie, but I was like, man, there is so much here and it just seems more impenetrable to me than other Wes Anderson movies. But that's why the discussion really, okay, because I saw the themes and what he was getting at and I'm like, oh, this is actually really...

Eli Price (02:51.071)
Mm-hmm.

Dave Lester (02:58.475)
deep stuff and it's kind of relevant with what's going on right now in many ways.

Eli Price (03:00.907)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (03:04.746)
Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Yeah, I'm excited to get into this with you. I know I had reached out to you and you came back and were like, hey, if you don't have anyone for insomnia, that's my favorite. So I'm excited to hear your thoughts on that. But before we get into that, why don't you share a little bit about yourself.

what you do and I know you have a podcast that you co-host too if you want to share a little bit about that.

Dave Lester (03:39.603)
Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. So yes, I'm Dave. And as most people out there now have, I have a podcast. It's called Veterans of Culture Wars with my co-host, Zach Malm. We talk about evangelical Christianity. I still consider myself an evangelical, a committed Christian. Zach does not anymore. So it's not a debate show. We just...

Eli Price (04:01.733)
Mm-hmm.

Dave Lester (04:07.019)
tend to have conversations with each other, good faith, open conversations, and we have had some just amazing guests. I am so indebted and grateful for authors, other podcast hosts, and people we've had on the show. I am looking to start a new podcast soon with just me. That's gonna be called, Does the Bible Say That? And it's gonna be just going through passages in the Bible, not as a sermon.

not as preaching it, but just talking about what does it say and what does it mean as best as we can tell, like in the era, in the culture it was written in. So that's something I'm working on right now that I'm excited about. I've yet to release that, but I'm hoping to release it in the next month.

Eli Price (04:54.198)
Yeah, that's awesome. That's news to me. I didn't know you were working on that. So yeah, I'm excited about that. Hopefully by the time this podcast comes out, it'll be on the road, because I'm out there and on the air, because this will be, it'll be several weeks at least before this one releases. So yeah, I'll be able to hopefully,

Dave Lester (05:01.055)
Yeah. That's less listen.

Dave Lester (05:21.332)
Okay.

Eli Price (05:23.394)
pop it in the show notes by the time this comes out. That'll be awesome. And yeah, I really enjoy veterans of culture war. I've listened to a few episodes. I'm one of those that when I find a new podcast, I'll kind of like scroll through and find interesting sounding episodes and download them. So that's kind of what I did when.

Dave Lester (05:29.847)
That'll be great.

Yeah.

Eli Price (05:52.482)
when I found your podcast and was following you on Twitter and whatnot. But yeah, one of the standout ones to me that people that listen to this might really enjoy was your episode with Elijah Davidson on his book, Come and See. Yeah, he's actually going to be, I have him slated to come on later in this series. And so

Dave Lester (06:11.231)
Yeah, love Elijah.

Eli Price (06:21.238)
But yeah, that was a great episode. Um, really good discussion. Uh, I'll, I'll try to link that specific episode and the, and the show notes too. Uh, so, so people can, can find that easier. Um, but yeah, I've, I've really enjoyed it. I appreciate, uh, just the, the honest discussion that they all have on there. So yeah. Um, yeah.

Dave Lester (06:43.967)
I appreciate it. Thank you. Yeah. And Elijah's book, Come and See, is really, really good, folks. If you're a movie lover, definitely pick that one up.

Eli Price (06:50.058)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, absolutely. I don't have the book, but I've been getting the emails. He has like an email list too. And yeah.

Dave Lester (07:00.935)
Yeah, it's so cool that he's doing that. Yeah, it's like a devotional. Like once a week, you just get an email for free with a specific film that you can watch and then read his notes and his commentary on it. It's very, very cool.

Eli Price (07:06.978)
Right.

Eli Price (07:11.319)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (07:14.902)
Yeah, and I've actually watched a few of the ones, a few of them I've gotten so far I've already seen and then a few, I've been like, man, I need to watch this and have tried to fit that in, but yeah, it's good. Moving into more specifically film and your experience, what was kind of your journey into loving film as a art medium?

Or was it like something when you were a kid, memories there or college? Everyone has a different story. What's yours?

Dave Lester (07:54.611)
Yeah, I feel like movies have always been around me from the you know my first conscious like Understandings that I'm in the world right I always felt like they were around My parents had an old VCR. I'm dating myself here. I'm a middle-aged man So we had we had the VCR and VHS tapes and we could watch these movies with a home video Market on the TV for all your kids out there. That's how we used to roll

Eli Price (08:22.392)
Mm-hmm.

Dave Lester (08:24.079)
So I grew up in Kent, Washington. It's a working class suburb that's south of Seattle. I actually was born into the same house and I lived there 18 years. My parents never moved. And so that was really cool. I'm really, I think attached to space like as a side note because of that. I can't go back to that house now because my parents have moved out of it, but I seriously really miss it and I wish I could just walk around in it again, you know.

Because the first 18 years of my life were there. But anyway My parents like going to the movies here and there and you know, they got married in 1972 so as they were married, you know 1970 cinema was just exploding and I'm assuming you like me and like all movie lovers kind of look at the decade of the 70s with the Godfather movies with dog pay afternoon. We're gonna talk about the tea al Pacino Also in Godfather as well

Eli Price (09:08.639)
Oh yeah.

Eli Price (09:16.14)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Dave Lester (09:20.407)
And then Star Wars, George Lucas, Steven Spielberg, all these guys were coming up in the 70s and it was just this explosion of just incredible cinema. So my parents were taking all this in. I came along in 1980, so we had the VHS of the original Star Wars trilogy before Lucas monkeyed around with the special editions. And so I would watch those. I remember, I think my dad took me to the theater.

Eli Price (09:40.899)
Mm-hmm.

Dave Lester (09:50.539)
to see the Disney movie, The Black Cauldron, which came out about the mid 1980s or so. I watched Raiders of the Lost Ark, probably way too young, but I loved that movie and I just felt a connection, like I think everybody in my generation of the on has with the hero of Harrison Ford. And so Raiders of the Lost Ark is still one of my all time favorite movies.

Eli Price (09:54.155)
Yeah, yeah.

Eli Price (10:14.946)
Mm-hmm.

Dave Lester (10:19.791)
When I was nine, Back to the Future 2 was coming out with the futuristic hoverboards. And I think, what was that, 2015 that they went into the future. And so we don't exactly have hoverboards yet. But it was coming out in the theaters. I had not seen the first one. So we went to a video rental shop. Again, kids, we used to have these video rental shops around. We picked out the original Back to the Future.

Eli Price (10:30.515)
Yeah, something like that.

Dave Lester (10:48.339)
And I remember being just blown away by that movie too. I mean, it is a nearly perfect film. I think we need to recognize the problematic elements nowadays as we look back at that. But it's just so entertaining. The characters are just incredible. Michael J. Fox and Christopher Lloyd, it was amazing. And so then we went and saw Back to the Future 2 in the theater.

Eli Price (11:01.933)
Yeah.

Dave Lester (11:16.779)
So I was also a fan of Star Trek. You know, in my area, like Star Trek was on the original series at 6 p.m., Next Generation at 7 p.m. And so I watched a lot of the Star Trek movies, too. And The Wrath of Khan is still amazing to me this day. It's kind of a submarine movie in space, essentially, right? A thriller. So I watched a lot of those. I mean, you know, some are better than others. The fifth one, not very good.

Eli Price (11:37.523)
Yeah.

Dave Lester (11:46.599)
very, very entertaining. And so I think once I got into my pre-teens and teens, I just started going to the movie with my parents, sometimes once a week on the weekends with either the must-see movie or the movie that we were the most interested in seeing. And that got me just thinking a lot about movies, kind of rating movies on my own and really following certain directors and filmmakers that I really admired. So to answer your question in a very simple way.

Eli Price (12:03.383)
Mm-hmm.

Dave Lester (12:16.619)
I think I've always loved movies. They've always been around.

Eli Price (12:20.394)
Yeah, yeah, it's really interesting the more people I have on the more it seems like everyone has like Different and yet like similar journeys as far as that goes everyone talks about like stuff they saw when they were kids that like stood out to them and And yeah, it's really cool that that's You know, we're really like only Just over a hundred years into this art form

as you know as human beings this you know art form that is film and moving pictures if you will and so It's interesting that like at this point, you know Really like everyone is engaged in some way with this art form And it seems like it's film and music are the two

Dave Lester (12:51.233)
Yeah.

Dave Lester (13:01.691)
Totally.

Eli Price (13:16.846)
kind of art forms that just everyone is engaged with in some way or another, you know, that are popularized. And so, I don't know, just, I don't have a whole lot to say there. It's just an interesting thing that I've started to notice. The more people I have on, the more it's like, everyone has been like really engaged and to some level or another with like film from a pretty young age.

Yeah, it's just really interesting. I don't think that's necessary. That might not necessarily be the case with every sort of art form. But I guess because film is such a popular culture thing, maybe that's why everyone is engaged to some degree with it really early on.

Dave Lester (14:08.983)
Yeah, I think people especially my age and probably the ensuing generations, it was probably the move for the home video market of you don't just go to theaters to see a movie, now you can actually own the art and watch it again and again on your VCR and then your DVD player and now on streaming. So it became like a painting, I have to go to a museum unless I'm really wealthy and can own a Rembrandt or something, right?

Eli Price (14:19.147)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (14:26.347)
Right.

Eli Price (14:35.286)
Right?

Right.

Dave Lester (14:38.975)
But yeah, with a movie, I think the studios, the artists have done a good job. And how do we make this accessible so people can engage with it and be a part of the experience?

Eli Price (14:52.33)
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that's cool. And talking about Nolan specifically, do you remember the first Nolan film you saw?

Dave Lester (15:03.655)
I do. Yeah. So I was in college, a small conservative Christian school called Grace College, which is in picturesque Winona Lake, Indiana. And one Sunday, I was actually at a Grace brother in church, kind of like Baptist, long story. And I was hanging out with some friends. And the guy who was a student body president, shout out to Nate Dunleavy, if he listens to this, he was around. And I think I lamented to him. I mean, this was the

Eli Price (15:13.847)
Okay.

Eli Price (15:20.055)
the

Dave Lester (15:31.971)
probably the summer of 2001, I think school was out for the summer and I was just hanging around. And I lamented to him that I hadn't really seen any good movies. And he's like, okay, you have not seen Memento yet, you have got to see Memento. And I remember I think I'd heard of the movie, maybe like the late Roger Ebert had given it a really positive review, God rest Mr. Ebert's soul, we love him.

Eli Price (15:49.71)
Hmm.

Eli Price (15:58.797)
Yeah.

Dave Lester (16:01.843)
But for whatever reason though, I didn't get a chance to see it in the theaters. So it had to come out in May of 2001. And I think it was on its way out of the theaters. Maybe that's by the time Nate had told me that you have to see this movie, you know. So I caught up with it on video and DVD at some point and was absolutely blown away. I had not seen anything like it. And so.

Eli Price (16:21.414)
Mm-hmm.

Dave Lester (16:27.807)
When Insomnia came out, 2002, I went and saw Insomnia in the theater by myself. And at that point, I knew the name of Christopher Nolan. You know, Nate didn't say Christopher Nolan directed Memento. I don't think we knew who directed it. Nate was just like, this is a really, really good movie. Go see it. Um, but, but I knew Memento was good. And so I was like, who directed this thing? And I saw Nolan's name. And after watching Insomnia, I thought to myself, I think I'm going to watch every movie this Nolan guy puts out.

Eli Price (16:37.769)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (16:44.554)
Yeah.

Dave Lester (16:57.703)
And I'd just seen those two. So I was on board. I really liked Insomnia, not as much as Memento, but I still really like Insomnia today. I think it's vastly underrated in Nolan's filmography.

Eli Price (16:58.562)
Yeah.

Eli Price (17:12.606)
Yeah, yeah, that's cool. Yeah, I was a burgeoning middle schooler when this came out in 2002 and just totally not on my radar. So it's cool to have you on here like who saw it in theaters is just, kind of have a little bit more history with it than I do. But yeah, I-

Dave Lester (17:27.714)
Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe

Eli Price (17:41.714)
I kind of shared on our opening podcast for the series You know my actually kind of in started. I think I had seen like Batman begins and stuff and maybe Dark Knight without like You can see superhero movies and not know who directed them. That's just kind of It's a Batman movie. So you're gonna see it no matter who really directed it sort of thing, especially when you're no Guy that like superheroes in high school

Dave Lester (18:11.895)
So yeah, and especially in Batman.

Eli Price (18:11.946)
But um, but yeah, so I had seen Yeah, yeah, I had so I had seen those but um, but just not aware of Nolan and I remember in college I saw the prestige which was like a Sounds like it was like a similar experience for me as memento was for you Just like blown away. I was like wow, this is this is So different than a lot of other things I've seen, you know to this point in my

my life and yeah, it's it. That was kind of the one that spurred me to see more Nolan. But yeah, I'm excited to talk about insomnia. It's kind of it kind of feels like the forgotten Nolan movie. And I guess we can talk a little bit about why that is. It's. But.

I don't know, I guess it's just because it's more of a standard movie in some ways, like a pretty straightforward plot. You know, he's, we'll talk a little bit more about the writing of it, but he's not credited as the writer, which he has writing credit for most of his movies. And I don't know, it just-

I don't know why it feels like the Forgotten Nolan movie, but no one really, people will talk about Memento because it was like his breakout. But a lot of times people, when they talk about Nolan, kind of skip insomnia and go straight to like the Batman trilogy. And I don't know, do you have any thoughts on why this is like the Forgotten Nolan movie?

Dave Lester (20:00.947)
Yeah, it's probably a little bit of that, because Memento was the movie that put him on the map, and that's kind of an ultimate indie type of movie coming out of the explosion of independent movies in the 90s with Quentin Tarantino. And of course, my beloved Joel and Ethan Cohen were making a lot of indie movies, just great films. I love them, they've made great films for a long time.

Eli Price (20:08.023)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (20:18.036)
Right.

Eli Price (20:21.727)
Yes.

Dave Lester (20:29.019)
Um, but yeah, I think, uh, you know, you make memento that puts you on the map and then Batman kind of overshadows everything. And I think once he made those Batman movies, and I know you're going to talk about them as this series goes on, but it seemed like he was making a Batman movie and then an original movie one after the other. So he would do Batman Begins. I think if I remember right, the prestige and then dark night and then inception.

Eli Price (20:37.57)
Hmm.

Eli Price (20:49.727)
Right.

Eli Price (20:54.271)
Right.

Dave Lester (20:55.803)
And Inception was nominated for a lot of Oscars. So I think that's why Insomnia gets lost is Batman as a character is so overwhelming and those movies are really great. The third one's not as good as the other ones but I think they're all a lot of fun. And then Inception is this huge original hit and is nominated for all these awards. And yeah, I just think people forget about it. I saw somebody online.

Eli Price (20:59.671)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (21:12.141)
Mm-hmm.

Dave Lester (21:23.543)
commenting that this wasn't a film critic, but just I think a normal everyday person like me, but they were like Oh insomnia feels like a David Fincher film I mean maybe kind of you know, and I don't know if we want to talk about that, but I don't know if I would Necessarily agree with that comment, but you know Maybe there's a lot of those types of reasons why people forget about insomnia

Eli Price (21:33.742)
Hmm. Yeah.

Eli Price (21:47.454)
Yeah, yeah, I don't know. I guess like, um, I guess there's aspects of like maybe the atmosphere of it that might feel a little bit Fincher, but it's, it's not quite as like, um, Fincher always feels like at the end of his movies, you, you really like feel like the world sucks, you know, I feel like after you watch a Fincher movie and I don't, I don't know that I felt like that at the end of this movie, like,

Dave Lester (22:10.082)
Yeah.

Eli Price (22:16.554)
You feel it at points in the movie, but it you know, we'll get more into that when we like start talking about thematic elements But I really feel like this movie the way it ends is um sort of has some like grace notes or at least some semblance of like The world sucks, but it doesn't have to kind of in it um You know what?

Dave Lester (22:40.303)
Right. It's a... Yeah, I think it's kind of a morality play. And, you know, we'll get into that, I think, like you said, thematically. You don't know exactly... The first time you see it, you don't know where it's gonna end up. But it definitely kind of ends up there, as I think we'll talk about. And it also features... You know, maybe we'll get into this a little bit more as well. I think Nolan is really into psychology. And he's really into human nature.

Eli Price (22:46.348)
Yeah, yeah.

Eli Price (22:53.643)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (23:06.338)
Yeah.

Dave Lester (23:09.847)
why people are doing certain things. His protagonists, including in this film, are always super complicated. And they're good elements, and you want to root for them as the audience. But then, as is the case in this movie, you have insight that the protagonists may have participated in really bad stuff, like really evil stuff, and you don't really know for a long time.

what's true and what's not about what he did or what's exactly in his past. And so it kind of casts this haunting shadow that for a while you just don't know what to think about what's going on.

Eli Price (23:50.506)
Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, it it's a it's a really interesting movie and so one thing a lot of people might not realize is that this is actually a remake of a Norwegian film of the same name I guess it would be the I don't know if Norwegian has a different word for insomnia than insomnia But um, but the movie posters just says insomnia. So I guess it's kind of the same word maybe

But yeah, so the English this is like the English re American remake of that movie which Directed by how I'm gonna butcher his name because you know he's norwegian Yeah, it's uh let me let me pull it up. It's Eric Eric's skilled yard It's it's one of those like

Dave Lester (24:36.707)
and say it real fast, right?

Dave Lester (24:48.567)
that passes in my book.

Eli Price (24:50.77)
Yeah, it's one of those names that has like the a like smushed together like letter, whatever. I don't know how to pronounce that. But but yeah, it's a really I actually went back in and what have you seen this one? The original. Yeah. Yeah, it's definitely worth watching, especially if you do like this remake. And it's different enough.

Dave Lester (24:59.427)
I'm going to go to bed.

Dave Lester (25:05.879)
I have not seen it. I need to see it.

Eli Price (25:19.978)
that it's an interesting watch, even if you already know the plot points. But yeah, it stars Stellan Skarsgård, who's kind of been he's had some success in American films as well. Really great actor. But yeah, it's an interesting film. It's.

Eli Price (25:47.71)
It does some interesting things with just like the noir genre that Nolan really loved and what drew him to it. He kind of shares, Nolan shares a story about how he was in the middle of, I guess, like the process of making Memento when this came out. And he actually saw this like twice on the same day.

I think in one sitting, I think he watched it and then just stayed and watched it again. He was just drawn to what the filmmaker was doing with this film as far as taking a noir and pushing the genre forward in a way with the textures it was using.

Eli Price (26:44.706)
Noir that instead of using night as like a character or like or an atmosphere It's just like constantly daylight And so yeah, it's interesting hearing I think the quote I put in the notes was that Nolan said was that it's swimming against cliche in the noir genre Which

You know, it kind of rings true when you when you go back and watch this original and really watch this remake, too Yeah, they really follow like the same like plotline you have the detective you have the never setting son You have the you know the teenage girl that's that he's coming up to investigate But in the original you really don't have

You have way less or virtually not any background on this character or his partner. And so it's a lot more like, you're a little bit more removed than you are in the Nolan remake, which is, it's interesting. And then he really does actually have some filmmaking aspects that are interesting. And I think the way it's edited is really interesting.

and different from the Nolan remake. But yeah, it's certainly one that's worth going back and checking out if you've never seen it. Yep.

Dave Lester (28:19.467)
Does he do what Nolan does with the flashback? So the opening of Nolan's version of Insomnia, I think if I remember right, has flashes of blood and gauze. And you see Baccino, I think through a mirror, doing something like rubbing something very mysteriously and then he wakes up on the plane. Are there similar like edits like that where you see kind of the past just in pieces that you can't put together until later in the movie?

Eli Price (28:31.947)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (28:39.084)
Yeah.

Eli Price (28:47.582)
Yeah, there's a little bit of that, but it's not the Pacino character. It's not that... He has a different name in the Norwegian version, obviously, but the flashbacks that it starts off with are actually visions of the murder and the cleanup happening. So in the Norwegian version...

There's not like the internal affairs investigation background. There's like none of that. So like there's, you know, because those flashbacks are kind of going back to like, you know, what Dormer has done that is kind of following him there sort of thing. And you don't have that at all in your Norwegian version. There's no like.

Yeah, there's no background plot point. There's no like, which, you know, we're spoiling things. This is a deep dive podcast. There's no like, I shot my partner, did I do it on purpose because I wanted to shut him up? Like that's not in the Norwegian version at all. Which makes it interesting in its own way and makes you

Dave Lester (30:06.936)
Wow.

Eli Price (30:13.59)
Yeah, it's still very interested in psychology, but it's much more removed. Like Nolan really wants you to sympathize with Dormer and have his perspective. And I just don't think that the Skjoldbarg, or if you say his name, is like super interested in you having a lot of sympathy for that character.

So it makes for a very different watch, even with the same general plot lines. You still have the killer's an author that she's befriended. And he doesn't go into, oh, she started laughing at me, and it went from there. And then too, with...

Nolan's version, you know, you kind of have that back and forth between Pacino and Williams where like Williams is kind of manipulating him to like Help him so that you know He doesn't get caught too and the motivations with the Norwegian version are like way less like Cut and dry like you don't it's hard to like grass like wait Why is he like so on board with like helping?

this murderer cover things up. And so yeah, it's just way less, you have way less sympathy for that character in the Norwegian version. So yeah. Yeah, I would reckon.

Dave Lester (31:50.923)
Wow, it sounds... Yeah, it sounds even darker than Nolan's version, so I will check it out someday.

Eli Price (31:57.062)
It, yeah, I think it is. It's, yeah, it's worth checking out for sure. But yeah, Nolan heard somehow, I guess, through the grapevine that Warner Brothers was gonna be doing the American remake. And he pushed like really, he pushed his agent really hard to get him an interview or whatever they get in Hollywood.

To meet with the studio and like he did like he just couldn't get him any meeting with them And so I think I read somewhere that it was originally slated Jonathan Demme was originally slated to do the read like to direct the remake and There was you know how like Casting rumors go there's always like this person was who they had like slated to do it, but

It was supposed to be Harrison Ford And the or so the rumors go in that Dormer character role which would have been really interesting Probably a very different movie. Yeah

Dave Lester (33:08.431)
Yeah, I am fascinated. Oh yeah, definitely. I am fascinated by this. I don't know, you know, I've seen this movie three or four times. I didn't know much about the production. And I did not know that Jonathan Demme was attached to it with the possibility of Harrison Ford and Al Pacino's role until I saw your notes this morning as I was preparing for a little interview here.

Eli Price (33:20.238)
Mm-hmm.

Dave Lester (33:34.067)
And yeah, Jonathan Demme, as probably most people know who are listening to this directed Silence of the Lambs, an incredible, incredible movie. To have him do something like this with Harrison Ford would be intriguing, but I think the only thing I would say, I said at the top of your episode, I grew up with Harrison Ford, he's like Han Solo and Indiana Jones, he's the ultimate hero to me.

Eli Price (33:40.77)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (33:57.76)
Mm-hmm.

Dave Lester (34:00.811)
But I really think at this point in Harrison Ford's career, I'm not sure like when they were attached to it. Harrison Ford was just making some duds, man. Like, I mean, he had a Hollywood homicide with Josh Hartnett, just an awful movie. I really wasn't a huge fan of, is it six days, seven nights that he did with Anne H. It seems like from that point on, he just, I don't know if it was his agent or what happened, but...

Eli Price (34:11.018)
Yeah.

Dave Lester (34:29.695)
just a string of movies that just were not so good. I mean, it was not the 15 or 16 years span of Harrison Ford from 1977 all the way through and maybe the early to mid 90s that we had, where he was just a force of nature as a star. But I mean, maybe this would have rebooted his career if he would have done this, I don't know.

Eli Price (34:34.433)
Yeah.

Eli Price (34:54.046)
Yeah, it I don't know. It might have rebooted it in a different like trajectory because of the like the nature of this character um You know, it's a very like It's a it's a character with a different sort of baggage than a lot of the stuff he had played up to that point um you know, he's usually playing more of like the hero like

Even in, like, I watched The Fugitive for the first time recently. I had never seen The Fugitive. And even in that, like, he's, you know, he's on his way to the electric chair or whatever. But like, you know, the whole time, like, he's innocent, like, he's a good guy. So like even in The Fugitive, where he's supposed to be a fugitive, you know, he's still like the hero, you know. So this would have been a very different, like,

Dave Lester (35:25.889)
No.

Eli Price (35:49.214)
Or at least, you know, I'm not as familiar as with his career as you are, but it seems like it would have been a way different sort of role with him. Like he has like Han Solo has baggage like Indiana Jones has baggage, but it's a different it's not as dark of baggage as like the Dormer character is carrying with him into the movie sort of thing. So, yeah.

Dave Lester (36:11.955)
Yeah, no, he's the fugitive, by the way. That is a five-star movie for me. I mean, incredible Tommy Lee Jones performance. I really love that film. If you haven't seen it, check out the movie Presumed Innocent that Harrison Ford did in the 80s. I wanna say that Alan Parker directed it. I'm doing this off the top of my head, so fact check me.

Eli Price (36:19.636)
Okay, yeah.

Eli Price (36:33.588)
Okay.

Dave Lester (36:38.231)
But it's definitely like a courtroom thriller. And I feel like if I remember right in that movie, he is very much more of a complicated character. There's a dark kind of proceeding over the whole thing. So he's done some roles where he's definitely not an out and out hero.

Eli Price (36:45.879)
Okay.

Eli Price (36:51.276)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think he the way he plays his hero heroes Usually is a little bit more complicated than or rough around the edges at least at the very least Then you know your typical kind of hero movie star character And so I could see how I could see him in the role just it would just be a lot very different than Pacino who

Dave Lester (37:06.083)
Bye bye.

Eli Price (37:19.926)
has the sort of movie star persona as being someone that is like very much like I Don't know he feels like in a lot of his movies. He's a sort of anti-hero like You know probably generally a good guy, but does a lot of bad stuff too He just plays a lot of roles like that so Yeah It it would have for sure been it. Yeah, it would have

Dave Lester (37:43.895)
Maybe it would have worked here.

Eli Price (37:47.306)
It would have been a different movie for sure. But yeah, Nolan did not get that at first. They brought in Hilary Seitz to write the script for it, who is credited as the writer for this one. And so I think even when it was supposed to be Jonathan Demme doing it, I think they had already brought on Seitz really early on to write this remake.

And she really only has like, I think she has like writing credit for Eagle Eye, that Shia LaBeouf movie that came out like in the early 2000s. Yeah. And then there was like a recent Netflix movie with Sandra Bullock and Viola Davis, I think that she is credited as a writer for her. So she really doesn't have like a huge body of work or anything.

Dave Lester (38:29.275)
Yeah. Meh.

Eli Price (38:47.586)
So I didn't really find much about why they brought her on to write it. But I do know that she was brought in early on. And it really took. So the interesting thing about going from that, Nolan doesn't get this meeting, goes back to finishing Memento. And then in the middle of, I think, Memento's festival run,

It had a pretty long festival run before it finally released. Like I think if you look at like IMDb or Letterboxd, Memento is like a 2000 movie, but it really didn't get released in the US till 2001. And so, like by the time Memento is like having its moment, Nolan is already like in the midst of starting to make insomnia. And it's all because Steven Soderbergh got a hold of Memento early on.

and basically like marched into Warner Brothers and demanded that they give Christopher Nolan a meeting to do this movie. Yeah, which you've gotta love that idea of Soderbergh like being like, no, this is the man. You need to get him in here. And he even like, go ahead.

Dave Lester (40:05.802)
He seems like...

Dave Lester (40:09.643)
Sorry, you know, I was just gonna say Steven Soderbergh seems like he is such a champion for artists like there's you know, I mean We don't know him personally or whatever. It just seems like he Really intentionally tries to find ways to work outside the system He uses the system such as the oceans trilogy to make a lot of money to fund his indie projects but it seems like he really

Eli Price (40:17.272)
Yeah.

Eli Price (40:22.401)
Right.

Eli Price (40:34.135)
Mm-hmm.

Dave Lester (40:36.811)
champions other artists and I absolutely love that Stephen Soderbergh is probably the reason we had the Batman trilogy directed by Nolan.

Eli Price (40:46.366)
Yeah, it really is because Soderbergh got Nolan this movie basically. Nolan even says that, you know, in interviews Nolan has said like Soderbergh is the reason I was able to make this movie. And so in Soderbergh and George Clooney kind of put their names, you know, as one of those situations where they're like, we're going to executive produce this if you give it to them. Kind of worse.

We're put stamping our names on this because we believe in this guy Which I always love looking back on like directors. They're the start of their career and how You know some people kind of just break into things on their own But a lot of times it's like this it's someone that sees your film and Like sees some of your early work and just like see something in you

and like goes and fights for you to be able to make it. Like for Wes Anderson, it was James L. Brooks and even Scorsese had like really great things to say about Bottle Rocket and Rushmore. They kind of like put their names out on the line of like, this is the next guy. And so I just think that's really interesting and cool in that industry.

Dave Lester (42:06.551)
Yeah.

Eli Price (42:11.074)
Just in the midst of that, like, the strange industry that Hollywood is, there are guys, you know, like Soderbergh, that are like, I'm putting my name on the line for this guy that I believe in. Really cool, I think. Yeah, it's, yeah, he finally, like, gets slated to do Insomnia. Got a $44 million budget.

Dave Lester (42:16.599)
Yes.

Dave Lester (42:23.743)
Yeah, that's great. Yeah.

Eli Price (42:40.574)
To make this studio his first studio movie. I can't remember what the memento budget it was but it was nowhere near 44 million I want to say it was like less than 10 for sure less than 10 million

Dave Lester (42:51.085)
Yeah.

Dave Lester (42:55.723)
Yeah, if it was 44 million, I got to wonder how much of that was swallowed up by, you know, big name stars. I mean, Robin Williams and Pacino obviously were both huge. Hilary Swank, I think had won the Oscar for Boys Don't Cry in the 90s, right? So she was, she was already established in a huge star.

Eli Price (43:05.484)
Yeah.

Eli Price (43:11.79)
She did. Mm-hmm, yeah.

Eli Price (43:19.09)
Yeah, yeah, and it is. It's three Oscar winners. So I mean, like when this came out, I'm sure. And I think, you know, I've seen the posters, the, the big names aren't Christopher Nolan, which would change, you know, in the future. Um, the, the big name on the poster changes to Christopher Nolan, but the, you know, it was these, it was one of those things where you could just say Oscar winners, this name, this name, this name, you know, Pacino Williams swank.

Which is really impressive. Um, and I don't know how much of that had to do with like, you know, Soderbergh and Clooney, like executive producing and like really putting a lot of stock into to be able to get those, those big names like that, but it's also, you know, it's a, it's a Warner Brothers was Warner Brothers at this point was, you know, they were just like making a lot of this, these sorts of movies, pumping a lot of money into.

these studio thriller sort of movies. So I don't know it exactly, yeah. And so yeah, it's really interesting when you look at that and think this, I mean, he was my age when he made this. I'm 32, he was 31, I think when this came out or when he started making it. And really like as far as directors go like,

Dave Lester (44:21.931)
Yeah, the adults are rated really.

Eli Price (44:48.766)
As far as like a career in Hollywood goes, sort of like still a kid in a way, you know? And so like. Right, right. I'm like, man, I don't I wouldn't know what to do if you said here's $44 million. Make make a movie. I would be completely lost. But yeah, here's Nolan.

Dave Lester (44:54.375)
Oh yeah. What have we been doing with our lives, Eli? What have we been doing with our lives?

Eli Price (45:17.918)
and really like he's, you get these actors like Pacino, Al Pacino, I mean, the man Al Pacino, Robin Williams, and Hilary Swank is kind of, she's won the Oscar, but she's just not coming in with as much like star power baggage as Pacino and Williams are. But like, it's like he really like takes

what these actors are coming in with and is really like off the bat, like just great at harnessing that star power and even like turning it on its head. Like Robin Williams, I think, had done one hour photo in the same year, which is another kind of like straight kind of creepy sort of strange character, which I've never seen one hour photo, but.

Dave Lester (46:12.883)
Yes, it's good. Oh, it's good. It's very indie. Yeah, he is creepier in one hour photo than Insomnia. One hour photo, if you watch it, just real quick, there is a surprising empathy that comes through at the end of the film. I won't give anything away, but it's worth a watch. It's good.

Eli Price (46:17.246)
Yeah.

Eli Price (46:23.636)
Yeah.

Eli Price (46:37.834)
Yeah, yeah, I'll definitely put it on the watch list. But yeah, it's just interesting that like in the same year, Robin Williams kind of has this kind of, I guess turn in the sorts of movies he's doing. It was really like up to that point, he was just the comic and feel good kind of actor. I mean, even Dead Poets Society, you know, it's a more serious role, but also like,

He's just like the inspirational teacher. Like it's still like a very feel good sort of role. Um, and, uh, it seems like when did, um, Goodwill hunting came out. That was after this, if I'm not mistaken.

Dave Lester (47:20.875)
It was actually, it was 1997. So that's where he won his best supporting actor. Yeah.

Eli Price (47:23.91)
Oh, so it was a little before. Yeah, so.

Right, that's right. That's right um and so yeah, so you know, that's a little bit more serious role, but again like inspirational like um It's not It's not a serious creep role, which is Yeah, it's really like taking that persona of robin williams and like turning it out on its head Um in a way that somehow really works um I don't know

Dave Lester (47:56.962)
Yeah.

Eli Price (47:58.846)
You know, I'm sure to a very high, great degree, and I'm sure like Nolan would probably say the same thing because he seems to be pretty like humble when it comes to like, uh, talking about his movies and the actors. He gives a lot of credit to his actors from the interviews I've heard. Um, but yeah, Nolan, um, and I think I even wrote down a quote. He said, uh, Nolan about Williams. He said he really found something in himself. Um,

Dave Lester (48:28.771)
That seems like kind of creepy given the role he's playing in this movie. He found something in himself Now Robin Williams, I mean this guy I think he was also in death to smoochy this year My friend my friend Jake Mark reminded me of that So there were three kind of big films that Robin Williams came out with My friend Jake shout out to Jake Mark. He may listen to this. I'll send it to him anyway

Eli Price (48:28.99)
which is, yeah, it does. Yeah.

Eli Price (48:43.342)
That's right, yeah.

Dave Lester (48:56.551)
He got to meet Robin Williams as an extra on the set of World's Greatest Dad, which they filmed some of here in Seattle in like the Wallingford neighborhood. And yeah, Robin said howdy to him. I mean, it's a similar story is that Robin is just really nice to everybody on set. He doesn't really cater to stars or just kind of the working class people that are working on the movie. Um, and I remember I just watched the documentary actually come inside my mind, which is a documentary on Robin Williams life.

Eli Price (49:03.874)
Okay.

Eli Price (49:13.474)
Mm-hmm.

Dave Lester (49:26.383)
And I think it was said, I don't think it was insomnia. I don't think it was a particular movie that we're talking about, but it said when he would do these thrillers, he would often, you know, he'd be serious and kind of do his role, but as soon as Cut came from the director, like he would go back to just cracking jokes and making people laugh on set and just, you know, there's something in him that just needed to make people laugh. And anybody, not just Pacino or Swank, but like the guy holding the microphone, right? Just anybody, making anybody laugh.

Eli Price (49:49.013)
Mm-hmm.

Dave Lester (49:56.011)
That's really cool.

Eli Price (49:56.606)
Yeah, yeah, yeah and in some of the like extra, you know features on the disk I watched through They kind of talk about like yeah Robin Williams, you know whenever He was done shooting for the day. He would stick around Like he would actually like stick around and like be doing exactly that like making people laugh like there was some like some b-roll, you know

Making of footage of him like looking directly at the camera like telling jokes to it's like, you know He's looking at the camera. It's like he's looking at the person holding the camera and like talking to them making jokes Which is really cool but it's also like it also says a lot about like Just how incredible of an actor he was that he could just like turn that on and play such a like I mean he is like

Like you said, he may be not as creepy as he was in one hour photo, but he is very creepy, very like, makes your skin crawl kind of character in this movie. But yeah, the other quote that I wrote down that I really liked was from a critic around the time this came out, David Edelstein, who I've never personally read anything by, but I liked this quote. He said, Williams is a shockingly effective counterweight to

the dormer character that is. The key is what he doesn't do. Those rubber features remain rigid, that mad clap energy harnessed. And I thought that was like such a like well like written out way of like what he's doing in this movie. He's taking like he's taking what you know Robin Williams for which is that kind of like mad clap energy and like you know his

Like I like how he says rubber features like the way at Robin Williams uses his face and stuff And he's just like suppressing that under the surface And I don't know it. It's it just makes for like a great performance It's just like man Robin Williams was Was the guy? you know He he was just man

Dave Lester (52:14.935)
Yeah.

Dave Lester (52:19.847)
I love, love Robin Williams. He wasn't always in the greatest of movies. There were definitely some flops. There were definitely some movies that are not great. But when there is a really good story, a great director that really harnesses his talent, such as Insomnia, it really just works so well. And I mean,

Eli Price (52:26.878)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Eli Price (52:38.608)
Mm-hmm.

Dave Lester (52:42.307)
There are two comedians especially Robin Williams being one of them and also John Candy I grew up with the movie Uncle Buck. That's another movie that just means a lot to me John Candy seems like my uncle and I just I miss seeing those two guys in the movies. I really miss both of them

Eli Price (52:47.947)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (52:57.101)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, I agree for sure It's you know, it's It's unfortunate. It makes you appreciate What when you know, unfortunately like a lot of times you kind of have to Have a loss to be a You know shown or made aware of like what you had Which is ironic thinking about like the line and following of you know, take

take it away, show them what they had. But yeah, whenever you have a loss like that of a great artist like Williams, who was just such a great actor and brought so many people joy, both joy and just enjoyment in watching him perform, you just realize, man, we really lost someone who made a difference in the way he did his art.

people's lives, you know, whether it was bringing them joy or just you know in the in the case of this movie just like being in wonder of like how he could just switch things and like do something totally different and But yeah, it's an he really did an incredible job with this and I think I think Pacino was really great in this too You know, I've heard I've heard some Some people kind of

Dave Lester (54:21.502)
Oh yeah.

Eli Price (54:28.118)
disagree with that and felt like Pacino was just kind of like I Don't I don't know it's hard for me to grasp like how they think Pacino is maybe like Phoning it in or like not putting a whole lot into this To me it feels the opposite. I feel like he's really like utilizing Where he is in his career? at this point kind of that

Dave Lester (54:44.973)
Man.

Eli Price (54:56.042)
that kind of like tired energy just feels like, it feels like everything he's doing is on purpose. It doesn't feel like he's just kind of phoning it in to me. Yeah.

Dave Lester (55:07.679)
No way. Yeah, no way. I hard, hard disagree with the people who are saying that about Pacino's performance in here. Here is the amazing thing about Al Pacino's performance in Insomnia. And it's not going to get him any awards recognition. It's not flashy. But, you know, watch something like Dog Day Afternoon, which is an excellent film. That's one of the best of the 70s.

Eli Price (55:12.588)
Yeah.

Eli Price (55:30.274)
Mm-hmm.

Dave Lester (55:34.643)
And you see Al Pacino chewing scenery, right? That's what he was supposed to do. He's very out there, he's Al Pacino, he's yelling. How many movies have Al Pacino just yelling and screaming and chewing the scenery, right? And then watch Insomnia and notice how reserved and restrained he is. And this also might speak to Nolan's direction as well and how he guides his actors. I think he...

Eli Price (55:49.834)
Yeah. Right.

Eli Price (55:56.494)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (56:02.958)
Mm-hmm.

Dave Lester (56:03.391)
He knew what the character of Will Dormer needed to be. And it wasn't Pacino exploding with his manic energy, which we all love, obviously, that's his trademark. It was something completely different than that. He had to be tired, he had to be exhausted, he had to be absolutely buried by the things he had done in his past.

and thinking about the things that he might have done in the context of this movie. And he was in a moral fog. You know, this isn't something where he's gonna cue the scenery. This is something where, you know, I mean, to bring kind of a Christian element in here, he's being buried by his own sins.

Eli Price (56:29.55)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (56:39.543)
Yeah.

Eli Price (56:49.214)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And one of the things I wrote, like when I I've turned this movie on, you know, it's the plane, you know, going to like flying over the glaciers and then like you go inside the plane, like right up close on Pacino's face and like, the first thing I think either the first thing or like the second thing I wrote down in my little notebook was like Pacino is tired already. Like his

Dave Lester (57:15.314)
Oh yeah.

Eli Price (57:16.67)
His face is just like he looks exhausted before he even like gets there And you know to the land where the Sun never sets you know and so it's which says a lot about both the writing and the performance and like Nolan's I for like where to put the camera Is just like

right off the bat, you can just see and feel very palpably, like this guy has been through it. Obviously, we know we're gonna be watching some sort of thriller. You've probably seen the trailer, if you're watching this in the theaters, you've heard, oh, there's some guy that's killed someone, he's a detective, you know he's gonna get into something.

But to start the movie off with, man, this guy looks like he's already been through it, is, yeah. Oh yeah, for sure. Yeah, I think I read somewhere that Nolan kind of said he, when he was starting to work on this, he kind of pictured Pacino's sunken eyes, those deep, dark, line under your eyes kind of face for this role.

Dave Lester (58:15.039)
Yeah, he is death warmed over.

Eli Price (58:40.11)
And man, I do feel like Pacino wears the feeling of this movie on his face. I mean, it's called insomnia. You know that there's going to be a feeling of just exhaustion over the movie, and he just wears it on his face so well. And like you said, it is very reserved and subtle in some ways.

Dave Lester (59:08.098)
Yes.

Eli Price (59:08.394)
what he's doing there, but yeah. Um. Yeah.

Dave Lester (59:10.891)
It's not flashy, but it's all intentional. It's a very intentional performance. He knew what he was doing and Nolan knew what he was getting from Baccino. And it's right for what the character should be.

Eli Price (59:22.706)
Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Yeah, and no one no one had said he was like nervous Because I mean obviously like this is his first big studio film and like right off the bat. He's working with Al Pacino You know it and so he was nervous But he said like immediately like Pacino like put him at ease like he was great to work with which is really cool and I think there's a there's a

Dave Lester (59:34.912)
Yeah.

Eli Price (59:48.69)
special feature on the DVD that I got from the library. You know, it's just Nolan and Pacino just talking for like 15 minutes. And it was really cool because in that little conversation they have, you get the feeling that Pacino really like taught Christopher Nolan a lot about how to work with actors, which I...

I really appreciated seeing that because it really put things into perspective. Here's this young guy who's coming in. It's his first big studio film. Obviously he's up to the task, but there's also a certain degree to which no matter, Christopher Nolan now, we know he's up to the task. But at that point, probably personally for Nolan and then for the studio too, it's like

I don't know if I'm up for the task. We don't know if he's up for the task. And so for an actor like Pacino to really come in and like, it seems like he was working with Nolan in such a way where like Nolan was obviously like directing him, but also like learning so much from him of like, okay, this is what a movie star actor needs from me. And so, yeah.

I really appreciated that Pacino worked with him in that way. Because who knows, he might have been, it might have been a while before we got the Christopher Nolan we have now who's just pumping out movies with movie stars. But to have someone like Pacino come along and really pour into you in that way is really cool.

Dave Lester (01:01:39.595)
Definitely Yeah, that's I mean because the Chino was so huge. I mean he could have Yeah, I mean there's probably a little bit of an ego when you're in some of the greatest movies of all time The Godfather is out the afternoon and Yeah, Nolan was not a household name. I'm assuming Buccino maybe Salmamento and like Soderbergh and George Clooney Recognizes talent is like hey man. Here's here's how to deal with You know crazy

Eli Price (01:01:41.696)
Yeah.

Eli Price (01:01:53.165)
Oh yeah.

Dave Lester (01:02:10.087)
Ego actors like me or whoever. I don't know if he has an ego. I was you know, but just saying Probably deal with that a lot if you're a director, right?

Eli Price (01:02:13.128)
Yeah.

Eli Price (01:02:18.514)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Swank is kind of a strange... I don't know, she's... So she's not... doesn't come along with quite as much like... of a filmography under her belt, but she is an Oscar winner already at this point. And... But she feels so... She's like a very strangely utilized character to me.

this movie I don't know I Feel like if there's a weak point in this movie a lot of it is kind of surrounding her and her relationship with Dormer It just kind of feels strange at certain points, and I don't think it's anything to do with swank as an actress I think it's just more the way it's written I don't know it

It's almost, and this is a different one too, because Nolan kind of does have the reputation of kind of under utilizing his female characters, and the actresses that he gets in those roles. He has a bit of a reputation of that, which I think to a certain degree is pretty fair. But this one, he didn't, he's not the main credited writer for this one. So it's almost like, you know,

You can only blame him for that to a certain degree for this one. But yeah, I don't know. Did you have any thoughts on that?

Dave Lester (01:03:53.253)
Yeah.

Dave Lester (01:03:59.199)
Well, again, I think Nolan worked with the screenwriter's sights kind of on drafts of it, right? So he may have actually had a hand. Yeah, so I guess we don't know, you know, maybe what was cut out and what was not. Related to Hilary Slank, I do, I think she's good in this movie. I agree with you on her performance. I think it largely works for me. I'll tell you why.

Eli Price (01:04:05.346)
She did. Yeah, he did, I mean, yeah.

Eli Price (01:04:17.771)
Yeah.

Dave Lester (01:04:26.379)
But let me just say, let's see, what was I gonna say? I do think there are certain things about her character, and like you said, the relationship to Dormer that could have been buffered as a screenplay, could have written better. Because her character, and again, for our audience, the movie's 21 years old, so we're gonna get into some spoilers here, so go watch it before.

Eli Price (01:04:45.123)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (01:04:53.695)
Yeah.

Dave Lester (01:04:53.831)
You know, you listen to any more of this conversation, although we've already been dropping some spoilers here, Eli and I as we've gone along. But her character's job, it's kind of, you know, as Al Pacino and Hap, who's played by Martin Donovan, as they fly in on this plane, land on the water in night-mute Alaska, rural, very isolated, small town Alaska.

Eli Price (01:04:59.259)
Oh yeah. Yes.

Dave Lester (01:05:20.631)
She's there waiting on the dock and she definitely has what seems to be a hero worship of Will Dormer, Pacino's character. She really looks up to him. And so a lot of those early scenes, her job, her character is kind of just, oh wow, I am a young cop, I am tenacious. Her character is very tenacious in the whole movie. And she really looks up to...

Eli Price (01:05:20.973)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (01:05:43.992)
Mm-hmm.

Dave Lester (01:05:47.875)
Will Dormer and wants to be kind of a detective like him But then you know, I'm assuming we'll talk more about the scene So I won't dive into the scene in the fog that much yet because I think we'll get there But the aftermath of that scene really switches how she sees Dormer Because as she is tenacious as she is very smart, but this is her character She's very young, but she's very smart and tenacious

Eli Price (01:06:01.591)
Yeah.

Eli Price (01:06:08.636)
Mm-hmm.

Dave Lester (01:06:16.699)
And she starts to see inconsistencies in the story from Picino, Will Dormer, and the evidence she's finding on the ground. Her hero worship kind of changes how she looks at him, how she interacts with him. It definitely changes into this, oh my goodness, what has happened here? And I don't know if I want to go any further, but I have to.

Eli Price (01:06:30.446)
Mm-hmm.

Dave Lester (01:06:44.651)
because I'm a cop, I have to find out the truth about what happened in this scene. And so that's why I think he's a fantastic character. I think I'll agree with you a little bit that I think the hero worship could have been developed a little bit better in the storyline, but the rest of it definitely works for me.

Eli Price (01:06:50.925)
Yeah.

Eli Price (01:07:01.482)
Yeah. Yeah, I think there's a certain degree to where like, I think just like watching this with just like, I want to watch a great movie. It's like, you wouldn't really do this, but like when I'm watching this with like an analytic mind, because I'm about to talk about it for a long time on a podcast, you know, you notice things like, okay, like it starts off and she has the hero worship and she's like, I wrote a paper on you.

for like, I guess some cop dissertation. Like, I don't really quite understand what that's about. I guess like, criminal justice college degree. She wrote a paper about one of his cases and it's almost like, hey, let's throw this in here so that like, when she's investigating him, she can like go and find in her paper what kind of gun he used. And I don't know, it just seems like kind of like, there, it's...

Dave Lester (01:07:30.249)
Yeah.

Eli Price (01:07:59.486)
It's more of like she's... I don't know, I just wish her character would have been fleshed out more, I guess. Um, which you only have so much time in a movie to do that sort of thing, so... You know, this is very much focused on Dormer and his perspective. So it's not, it's not a huge... This is more like a nitpick, I guess. It's, it's not really like, it doesn't diminish the movie for me a whole lot. Um, it's just one of those things where like, man, it would have been cool to like...

if her character was less about like finding, you know, finding out what was wrong with Dormer's, you know, story and more about like if she had a little bit more like character to her, like, and so I do think you're right about like her kind of play in this story. I think that's swank really like.

Dave Lester (01:08:41.751)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (01:08:55.658)
does well with that switch that you talked about. After the incident in the fog, where he shoots his partner, and really, I guess it's mostly after Dormer pushes her to actually investigate it and not just write up a report just to get it done. After that, the way she looks at him changes a whole lot and I think that says a lot about

Dave Lester (01:09:17.559)
Thank you.

Eli Price (01:09:25.054)
swank and her ability to tune into a character and do that performance well. Just the subtleties in the way she looks at him or even not so much the way she looks at him when she's talking to him, but when he walks away, the expression on her face is a very subtle, puzzled, something's wrong here kind of look.

that I think she like pulls off really well. So, you know, like I said, it's nothing about swank as an actress. It's more just, it's kind of one of those nitpick, like, I wish there was more to the character kind of things. Because she is interesting. She does play it very interesting and it makes you want more of that character. I guess that's maybe what it is.

Dave Lester (01:09:54.353)
Absolutely.

What's he weird?

Dave Lester (01:10:08.844)
Yeah, it's-

Dave Lester (01:10:16.927)
Yeah, and that scene where outside the police station, I think Pacino, and this is after his partner's been shot, and some of the other detectives are driving somewhere, and she's very fake happy and sing-songy, and she's like, oh, are you going, maybe they're going to the airport or something, about to go to LA, and she hugs Pacino, and you see her hand go down his back, like she's groping him, but she's checking to see what kind of gun he has.

Eli Price (01:10:24.511)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (01:10:41.43)
Yeah.

Dave Lester (01:10:45.631)
because she's trying to match up the bullets. And once she does, the expressions on their faces without any words being said, like she's confirmed it. And Pacino is almost looking at her like, she's got me. And she's young, but she is a really good cop. She's got me.

Eli Price (01:10:46.285)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (01:11:05.486)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, that's really good. And that is, I guess, like.

Yeah, like I said, it's there's some good stuff going on there with both the performance and like the, the role the character plays. Um, and yeah, I think, I think I guess like talking through it has made me think more like, maybe it's like, it was interesting enough for me to want more and less about like, there should have been more, which I guess there's a, a little bit of a difference in those perspectives, but, but yeah, I really enjoyed, um,

Dave Lester (01:11:36.855)
Yeah.

Eli Price (01:11:43.806)
I enjoyed Swank's performance, to say the least. Yeah, getting more into the production side of things, obviously like great casting, we just talked a lot about those performances, but the production was, I don't know, there's the feel of this movie that Nolan, so Nolan is working with Wally Pfister.

as his cinematographer for this which he worked with for memento also and What so I think it's a combination of Nolan's directing and the way he like composes his scenes Combined with like what Wally fister is able to capture with the camera and then on top of that what? Dolly Dorn who's the editor? She was she edited memento to I'm pretty sure

What she was able to do with the way this movie is edited, all of that really combines to give this movie a really distinctive atmosphere. I know that Nolan, because of the way he started his career, he very much has a hand in everything. So like you mentioned, he did do some rewrites of the script with Sites, but he just wasn't.

He wasn't at a point where he was like, hey, you need to put my name on the writing credit. He was just like, you know, I don't need my name for a writing credit, even though like probably he did enough where he probably should have gotten writing credit. But yeah, he kind of has his hand in a little bit of everything just because he's familiar with what it's like to be behind the camera. And he's familiar, very familiar with what.

his what editing the editing for his films looks like because he was doing all that stuff when he was getting started all of all himself and so yeah he I think it's a really like a testament to Nolan and I guess his work with his crew of like really putting together I guess like a singular vision for what they want a movie to feel like

Eli Price (01:14:10.89)
Um, because man, does this movie have a, uh, a feel, I guess, uh, for, for lack of a better term. Um, yeah.

Dave Lester (01:14:16.508)
Definitely.

Dave Lester (01:14:21.595)
Yeah, if you're talking about like, um, even the scenery, you know, how, how it looks and then how that makes you feel as you're watching it. I feel like other filmmakers, you know, they would really highlight the natural beauty of the area because I live in Seattle. I live in the Pacific Northwest. This is a beautiful part of the world. I've never been to Alaska, but I'm assuming, you know, what I hear from people, my parents have been there. It's a really beautiful place as well.

Eli Price (01:14:31.067)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (01:14:43.436)
Yeah.

Dave Lester (01:14:51.071)
But the water, the forests, the glaciers, and in this place, in Nightmute, it's remote, but again, it's certainly beautiful. But the way Nolan chooses to film and edit this movie, I don't feel like he's really getting us to pay attention to the natural beauty. What you're getting at, the feel that we have while watching this movie is Nolan is reminding us, he's using the sets and the scenery to remind us of how remote

how isolated this place is. There's characters that talk about they're escaping a past to come up to this place in night-mute Alaska. So while we see natural landscape, and yeah, it's beautiful, there's always like an unforgiving aspect to it. I mean, it's the American rugged individualism. People go up there to be on their own and...

Eli Price (01:15:32.106)
Right, yeah.

Eli Price (01:15:47.605)
Mm-hmm.

Dave Lester (01:15:47.771)
It's perhaps lonely and isolated and these terrible things happen. And yeah, I just don't think the focus is on the natural beauty as much as it's like it makes you feel this. Oh, man, like we're really out here on our own.

Eli Price (01:16:04.458)
Yeah, yeah, I think too like, um, there's a lot of like juxtaposition of like kind of the I guess like the griminess and the like um, I guess like the Mundane architecture of this town like there's not anything like elaborate happening with the architecture in this town everything's pretty like If not, like grimy which some of it is

than like very dull. And so you're seeing like him walk through the streets of this like dull looking middle of nowhere town. And then in the background you have this beautiful scenery, this beautiful landscape. And it's almost like the juxtaposition of that. It's almost like that beauty is like hemming in this little world and like a fence around this little world that he's experiencing.

Dave Lester (01:16:35.98)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (01:17:03.654)
in that isolation like you're saying and I and I think it just it all works so well and the way that I Don't know the way that light is used Just as like, you know that flip of the noir like we were talking about earlier of like Instead of so many things happening at night It's like, you know, everything is day. It's

Everything is in the light. The Sun doesn't go down which I went on a trip to like a little mission trip to work with a church in Alaska That was probably almost ten years ago That I did that we were in Anchorage and it was strange. It was during the summer And like I have this memory like we had a long day and like we all went to McDonald's

We were eating and it was like it felt like it was dinner time, but it was like 11 p.m. Um, and it felt like it was like, you know 5 p.m And it's just a weird feeling um and so like They I just feel like they really like utilized that to the highest degree um that the strangeness of

You know, usually a noir feels strange because there's so many shadows. And like, it kind of plays metaphorically of like, you don't know what's lurking in the shadows in a noir, like as if like, you don't know what's lurking in this story around the corner. Like what's going to happen plot wise that's going to be surprising because it's been in the shadows for so long. Like there's no shadows here. Everything's in the light, but you still have that.

It's like you get that feeling in a different way. I don't know.

Dave Lester (01:19:03.027)
Oh, totally. And it's almost, it's almost biblical in that use because the main character, because of what he has done, he's trying to keep the light out. He's complaining about the light. He's trying to board up and paper up and put blackout curtains in his hotel room to keep the light away because he wants to, you know, sleep so desperately.

Eli Price (01:19:13.046)
Right.

Eli Price (01:19:25.418)
Yeah, absolutely. And I think I really like that. It's almost like light as like the revealer of truth. There's that scene towards the end where he's like throwing cushions and like desks and stuff against the window to try to cover it up. And the hotel manager, I can't remember the actress that plays her.

Dave Lester (01:19:35.852)
No.

Dave Lester (01:19:51.499)
Marat Yirini.

Eli Price (01:19:53.39)
Yes, yeah, which she's really great in that role is as little as you know, screen time as she gets, she really uses it well. But she walks in and she's like, what are you doing? You know, we're getting complaints or noise. And he's like, it's just so bright in here. And there's that moment where like she's like, it's no, it's dark in here. And she flips on the light and there's that like flood of light that comes over the screen.

And it's just that idea of he's so like buried under his guilt that like it's like light is just like pushing so hard to break through on his life. Yeah, it's painful. Yeah. And it's

Dave Lester (01:20:34.763)
It's painful. Yeah. It's like painful to him to see the light. Yeah. Can we, so this, go ahead, sorry.

Eli Price (01:20:44.29)
I was just going to say it's both like painful psychologically because of his guilt, but also just like physically. And so those two things are mixed together and blended together, the physical and the psychological nature of light in that way.

Dave Lester (01:21:02.847)
Absolutely. Yeah. Can we, um, can we talk about this scene? Should we do it now or should we do it later? Because this scene with Rachel, Marna Tierney and Al Pacino in this hotel room is my favorite in the movie and it has haunted me for 20 years since I've seen it. And it's. Hold on. Okay.

Eli Price (01:21:20.81)
Let's let's talk a little bit more about the production and then we'll jump into Stuff like that. Yeah, sometimes our rabbit trails take us too far too far down the line Because uh, yeah, I did want to talk a little bit more about Just like these locations, you know, no one is big on

Dave Lester (01:21:36.047)
I got you man, yeah. I'm on board.

Eli Price (01:21:49.27)
You know not to take too hard of a left turn, but he's so big on filming on locations and one of the most interesting like Location stories about this film is that cabin sequence? So you know there's the scene or uh It's not too far into the movie where they have the back they find the backpack at this cabin of the girl that's been killed and um You know, they kind of do the you know, if you find this backpack, you know, please report it they

They put it out there and they're trying to trap the killer. You know, they put the backpack back out there. They're they're on a stake out. That whole set is in. I think I wrote it down. Indian Arm, British Columbia. And it's this place they found that where there was a landslide. So like all those rocks and stuff are from a landslide.

in this area you really can't even get to except for by boat or helicopter. And so they found this spot, they did a lot of scouting with helicopters. So like the log sequence that happens, like the chase over the logs, they found like they were seeing these log places like that. And that's how they got the idea from these scouting trips they were doing in helicopters.

But yeah, they found this little place where there was a landslide and they had to bring in all the materials to build all this. That wasn't there, the cabin, the bridges, none of that was there, they built all that. And they had to do, I think in the special features, the production designer said that they had to do 40 to 60 helicopter trips to get all the materials in.

Dave Lester (01:23:30.007)
Wow.

Eli Price (01:23:44.241)
So there's a lot of your budget right there, you know.

Dave Lester (01:23:47.924)
million dollar budget and lighten money on fire yeah

Eli Price (01:23:51.458)
Yeah, yeah, they you know, they're just like built bringing in all this material that the He was talking about like the engineering for those bridges was like actually pretty complex so that they were like safe to walk on But yeah, it's just yeah, no one is all about filming on location and like Making everything as real as possible and you know that you know, I think it

I think it's like to a great benefit for that cabin sequence is so good. And then the fog, you know, the chase and the fog afterwards is just it's just it really is incredible. I think. You know, you have the you know, that cabin sequence, which is an incredible set that they built. And then the fog on top of that, where they were like pumping out, they were like they had boats out on the water like.

Dave Lester (01:24:28.895)
Incredible.

Eli Price (01:24:48.398)
pumping out all of this. It's essentially like some sort of, you know, fake fog smoke. And yeah, just like the idea of the amount of like effort that went into making that sequence happen. And it really is probably one of the best sequences in the movie, I think. What they were able to capture with that. Because it's one of those sequences where you watch it and you're like, I've...

I've never seen a sequence that was like that before, sort of thing, that chase through the fog. Like, you just don't get a lot of movies working in fog because it's hard to shoot in. You know, they were, one of the special features the guy was talking about, you can't light in it. Like, you can't do any lighting. You just have to film and hope it turns out good. Because if you light from behind, then, you know, it reflects...

the fog in this way if you like from the front it reflects in this way and none of it works so that was kind of fascinating to me the idea of like shooting in fog and not being able to light anything the way you would normally would I don't know that was really interesting to me and I guess just because it turned out so well

Dave Lester (01:26:10.999)
Yeah, it is great. It's one of the strongest scenes in the film for sure. I'm saving my fire for that hotel room scene because that's probably my favorite one. But yeah, visually and just what happens and the excitement of the chase. Amazing scene in the film, yes.

Eli Price (01:26:22.828)
Yeah.

Eli Price (01:26:30.014)
Yeah, you know, I think just that the action in this movie is distinctive in that way. It's I think it, you know, it's really is it does feel like Nolan starting off his career, showing that he when it comes to like action, he just has a different mind and a different eye for it than he's bringing something new to the table as far as like.

his action sequences goes. And I think that's probably what one of the things, I think those sequences, so you have, I think the two major ones are that sequence in the fog, the chase in the fog, and then the chase over the logs are two like just incredibly like captivating action sequences and it makes me wonder, did like Warner Brothers just see those two sequences and be like, okay, we.

This guy can make an interesting Batman movie. Let's give it to him. Obviously it made over $100 million, so that had a lot to do with it too. But the money probably speaks louder than anything else. But yeah, I had in my notes geography as psychology and we already hit that on a bunny trail. So don't you love it when our bunny trails like.

Dave Lester (01:27:40.573)
Oh yeah.

Dave Lester (01:27:47.148)
Yeah, that's a...

Eli Price (01:27:57.078)
hit things in the notes that you didn't expect. You never do. But yeah, one of the things that I thought was really interesting too about the action sequences is it's edited in a way where you're, it's a very subjective way. So when I think about I'm gonna be running across uneven terrain, I'm trying to put myself in that.

Dave Lester (01:27:59.667)
You never know where things are gonna lead, right?

Eli Price (01:28:26.77)
in those shoes and I'm gonna be watching my feet, right? So if you're running across like rocky terrain, chances are you're not gonna be like looking way out ahead of you, you're gonna be like looking down at your feet to make sure you don't like step wrong. And I think the way that those sequences are edited, you're constantly going from like seeing him run to like shots of his feet stepping on the things. And it does feel like very subjective in that way.

And I just thought that was like man, that's such incredible editing to think that through like we need to get these shots Of his feet running across the rocks because it's just another way where we can make you feel like you're right there with him you're kind of in his head and Yeah, it just I Don't know. It's just the way that Nolan Thinks about you know that sort of thing and that his action sequences I think is really

And then there's you know, there's a metaphorical aspect to that too because dormer is morally on uneven ground and so like all those shots of him running his feet running across uneven ground just like adds to the moral psychological aspect of it, too It's

Dave Lester (01:29:46.283)
Yep. And also just reminds us that, yeah, that's certainly true, but also the physical aspect too. He has not slept in so many days. And so Nolan will put on those quick edits rather than a continuous camera shot, just kind of jump edits, just to remind you that his state of mind is deteriorating before our eyes as the audience.

Eli Price (01:30:01.996)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (01:30:07.85)
Right. Yeah. So many layers with what he's doing there. And, you know, that's something I've heard Nolan talk about is like when he's thinking about what he wants to do with a movie, you know, people. He talks about like people rewatch movies. And so he wants to make layered movies so that like you see more when you watch them again. And I think that I think that really from the get go of his career.

Is is very true even with this film as a film that like is a remake that you know He didn't write most of the script for as far as we know, you know, he's still like He's still like doing what he does well in the midst of that Yeah, I think I Think there's some really interesting like thematic elements that come through

come through in this. You know, we talked about the light as kind of like a recurring theme. Light trying to reveal what's trying to be hidden is really incredible. Did you want to let? I think we can jump into that scene that we were talking about earlier, as far as that goes, like with light, the light revealing the truth. And yeah, what's her character's name, Rachel?

Dave Lester (01:31:30.312)
Yes.

Dave Lester (01:31:36.267)
Rachel who owns the inn and the restaurant that's there off of there And Pachino's character will dormer had obviously met her before because they've been staying at this place and she's been around one of their first encounters was when Pachino was sitting there with his partner half before half got shot in the fog and Half is telling the Chino right there that he's gonna go ahead and testify. He has a family

Eli Price (01:31:37.876)
Yeah.

Eli Price (01:31:50.785)
Right.

Eli Price (01:31:59.32)
Mm-hmm.

Dave Lester (01:32:07.199)
he has to testify in order to get immunity. And Pacino is obviously really pissed. And she's kind of around and sees Pacino kind of storm off without eating any food. And so that's kind of the background of their character relationship. But this scene that I said has haunted me for 20 plus years is just this conversation in a hotel room between Will Dormer and Rachel.

It almost feels like a confessional booth to me. I mean, I don't want to I'm not a fan of putting Christian stuff in movies. I mean this movie is secular I think it's meant to be secular although, you know I do think Nolan is playing with the idea of light in a religious way. I think that is definitely Probably fair. I mean that's probably on his mind but this really does feel like a confession booth where Pacino has just

Eli Price (01:32:38.325)
Yeah.

Eli Price (01:32:54.227)
Yes.

Dave Lester (01:33:03.387)
enough and he just has to tell somebody and he doesn't know this Rachel character really well but she's almost like a priest in this scene listening to him and so he goes through and he talks about what had happened in the past and why he's being investigated by Internal Affairs and why Hap was going to testify for immunity and that was because he had planted blood samples

Eli Price (01:33:13.408)
Mm-hmm.

Dave Lester (01:33:30.567)
at a crime scene involving a child murderer who had sexually assaulted kids. And this is where this scene is so, like I said, haunting. It gets under your skin. And for the first time, you start to see, okay, I think cognitively this...

Eli Price (01:33:37.322)
Yeah.

Dave Lester (01:33:57.675)
Pacino character has done something bad. He has abused his power. Absolutely. He has lied he has Done something horrible that if any police officer did People would rightfully be up in arms about like it's outrageous what happened but This is a child murderer You know no one looks like the worst

Eli Price (01:34:01.634)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (01:34:17.412)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (01:34:24.238)
All right.

Dave Lester (01:34:26.499)
possible crime that Pacino was trying to put this guy away and you know his line is so just crippling where he says um something like a jury has never met a child murderer before but I have and in the conversation he hints that you know he's a cop he's gathered the evidence

Eli Price (01:34:48.066)
Yeah.

Dave Lester (01:34:54.335)
He doesn't specifically mention this in his monologue and the dialogue that they do, but I'm assuming that he's taken the evidence to a prosecutor, because that's usually how the system works. And the prosecutor probably said, you know, I don't think there's enough evidence here to nail this guy in front of a jury. And then if you think about Pacino's character, you know, Eli put yourself in his shoes or me, what would you do or what would you be tempted to do in that situation?

If you felt like there was enough evidence that this guy really did something horrifically evil and you don't want him back on the streets because in all likelihood this kind of crime, somebody's going to do it again. You know? It's... and he says, you know, the line of moral relativism, which is very relevant to the film as well, the ends justify the means, right? And he poses that question to Rachel. Right, yeah.

Eli Price (01:35:32.959)
Right.

Eli Price (01:35:37.363)
Yeah.

Eli Price (01:35:48.883)
Yeah. Right?

Dave Lester (01:35:52.807)
And she doesn't necessarily agree with it. She doesn't answer it. She kind of deflects it to saying, you know, I can't judge you because. I escaped something and that's why I moved up here. You know, so you kind of get a little, you know, she's running from something in her past too. And then she says something like, you know, I think you have to do what you feel is right at the time and also what you can live with. Um,

Eli Price (01:35:58.765)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (01:36:07.711)
Yeah.

Eli Price (01:36:21.684)
Right.

Dave Lester (01:36:22.703)
And this is a, a haunting conversation. Again, I want to, I want to say, you know, as a Christian, I mean, what he did was wrong. You know, it's, it lacks integrity. It's not truthful. It is a lie. And having somebody in a position of authority doing that is horrible. But subjectively, you know, and here's where Nolan is, is really digging into psychology, I think in human nature.

Eli Price (01:36:33.186)
Mm-hmm.

Dave Lester (01:36:51.959)
Subjectively you understand why he did what he did There's a there's an empathy connection there with that case And I don't you know Nolan is pretty much putting this right in front of you and he's saying what would you do audience? What would you do if you were willed warmer? Yeah? Whoa

Eli Price (01:36:57.269)
Yes.

Eli Price (01:37:09.054)
Right. Yeah.

Yeah, and I think, I think man, yeah, it really is an incredible like sequence and it is like, just like a, I guess a showcase of the way that Nolan, you know, a lot of, I feel like a lot of Nolan's characters are, you know, he's not so much interested in doing like character studies as he is doing like.

kind of like human psychology studies. Like his characters are very much representative of, like here's a moral decision that has to be made. Like let's put this character in the grayest of gray areas and see what they do, and see if you can relate to them in any way. And I think most of the time you do, you do relate to them because it is a common like

human thing. Like, you know, you're so many of the decisions we have to make, whether, you know, I guess most of our decisions are a lot less, a lot more trivial than the decision that Dormer was making. As far as like putting a child molester and murder away. Most of us aren't facing that sort of decision. But yeah, to you know,

Dave Lester (01:38:36.451)
Thankfully.

Eli Price (01:38:38.318)
To one degree or another, we all have to make decisions in the gray. And I think that's one thing I really love about Nolan is that that's the area that he's most interested in exploring. We would love for things to be black and white. And I think like...

thinking of things in too much black and white causes a lot of issues in humanity. I mean, we can see that on display all over the world, in our country, whatever, but in the gray is where most things lie. And that's what Christopher Nolan really digs into. And there are, I think one of the themes that

themes that goes along with that is just the idea of competing narratives. Um, you know, and I think that's where Robin Williams, uh, Finch, uh, Finch character comes in is, um, you know, he co he pops up. Um, you know, it's interesting, you know, you have, I think I wrote down. It was at like 48 minutes before you even like hear his voice on the phone, um, into the movie. And then it's another, like.

12 minutes before you actually see him in person. Like, I think it's like right at the hour mark where you finally see his character in person. And he comes along at a time where Dormer is starting to like struggle with what he's done as far as like shooting his partner goes. And it's almost like he comes along just in time to like really like...

try to um, I don't know write this competing narrative in his mind Of this is maybe why you did it You did it because you knew you needed to shut him up. You knew you needed to Um do you know it's planting those seeds of guilt and in doubt and shame in his mind And I think that idea of like competing narratives, um that we you know if

Eli Price (01:41:00.102)
Williams's character didn't come along like that competing narrative might still pop into his mind But in that Finch character, we get it, you know said out loud We get to see him. It's almost like him Having that debate in his mind, but you know out in real life between these two characters Where you know Finch is saying, you know, we're not so different you and I and you know

I think by the end of the movie, Dormer kind of sees the falsity in that. You know, when he's talking to Rachel, I think he's kind of processing that, like, no, I'm not like this guy. And you can kind of see that when he starts interacting with him again. But yeah, there's those competing narratives that we have in our mind.

Dave Lester (01:41:37.955)
Okay.

Dave Lester (01:41:51.158)
Yeah.

Eli Price (01:41:55.93)
And Nolan is playing with that. He's saying what story are you gonna believe? You know, he's asking that to you as the audience what you know You know and by the end of the movie, you know as You know again spoiler alert dormer is like lying there bleeding out, you know Swanks Elieber, you know asked him like She's kind of asking him, you know did Why did you do it? And he says I don't know anymore

I don't know if I did it on purpose or not anymore. And he's just in a state where he can't even find the truth anymore. It's something that he's just like, it's so hard for him. Yeah.

Dave Lester (01:42:38.627)
He's lost in the moral fog. Yeah, he's lost in the moral fog. And the competing narratives, yeah, there's competing narratives in his mind that Dormer doesn't know which one is true. But he does come clean, telling Hilary Swank, I don't know if I meant to shoot him. When I got closer, he seemed afraid of me because he seemed to realize what was happening. Quick story about that, as I watched it this time, it had been, it's been a while since I've seen it. I revisited it a few days ago in preparation for this.

Eli Price (01:42:46.702)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Mm-hmm.

Dave Lester (01:43:09.075)
And as I watched it, I'd forgotten some of the details. But when Al Pacino was pursuing Robin Williams Finch character in The Fog, you'll notice he has his main gun drawn. And this is after Finch had shot another police officer in the leg. So Pacino had his gun out. And I noticed that he had his main weapon. He cast that weapon aside and reached back for his backup weapon. And that's what he shot.

Eli Price (01:43:29.26)
Yeah.

Eli Price (01:43:38.19)
Mm-hmm.

Dave Lester (01:43:39.195)
partner with, you know, you kind of see like a figure of a partner and a gun through the fog, and that's why I was telling my intelligent and wonderful wife Michelle, I'm like, oh man, this makes it darker. I think he meant to do it because he was actually casting his weapon aside and grabbing his backup weapon and then shooting his partner, and Michelle was like, no, I don't think he meant to do it, and so we went back and watched that scene.

And what happens is with the main weapon, there's a clear click, almost like the gun jammed or something, and he casts it aside. And then he, and then he grabbed his nine millimeter and that's what he shot his partner with.

Eli Price (01:44:10.878)
Right. Mm-hmm, I noticed that.

Eli Price (01:44:18.142)
Yeah, you get you get that kind of like kick like he he's firing but it's not going off sort of thing um for sure Mm-hmm. Yeah, and um one of the things that like that I noticed with that is like You um, and I think it has to do with the filmmaking is like nolan really wants you to have his perspective Um, he really wants you to have like a subjective experience with dormer

Dave Lester (01:44:21.717)
right.

Dave Lester (01:44:25.452)
Exactly.

Eli Price (01:44:48.298)
You know, we kind of talked about how like the cinematography and the editing plays into that a lot But it's there too. Like we see Everything we're seeing in that scene is from his perspective. Obviously like there's a third-person camera. So you look at his face, too But the way it's made is very much subjective to his perspective and so like when you see in the fog a figure

that looks like it has a gun and you've ran in the direction that you think that the killer went. Like yeah, like you're with his perspective and you're like, yeah, he didn't mean to shoot his partner. He thought he was shooting the killer. And then obviously, you know, we've talked about like that guilt and that doubt like creeping in and like those competing narratives really like

Eli Price (01:45:48.743)
But I do think that it was important in that scene to have to see things kind of through his eyes because as the audience you can kind of you even though like you're experiencing it subjectively with him like as he's starting to experience doubt like you're I don't know I felt when I watched it this time I felt like I was more grounded like

Wasn't necessarily like in the moral fog with him like I was like, okay I don't I really don't think he did it on purpose like and I felt like pretty certain about that Even as he was dealing with his fall with his moral fog with his doubts and so yeah That yeah, it's interesting at least like I don't know if that was like the intent of the filmmaking there

necessarily, but I'm not sure if like Nolan really wanted you to doubt along with him. But when I was watching it, I was like, okay, this is his perspective and you really, you really couldn't tell who that was in the fog. But yeah.

Dave Lester (01:47:00.063)
Absolutely. No, I think he almost wants you to believe he really killed his partner on purpose for a while because Macchino is doing all kinds of other shady things as well, including trying to cover it up. Yeah.

Eli Price (01:47:07.266)
Yeah.

Eli Price (01:47:11.15)
Yeah. And he is. And that's the thing where it's like. I think you're getting a little bit into like the ends justifying the means sort of thing. That's that's one of the questions he's struggling with. He doesn't like express it necessarily until that, you know, confessional scene there with Rachel. But I think that is what what's going on. You know, I think even at one point, Finch says to him, you know, think

You've got to think about all the guys that all the evil guys that will be let out if you come clean You know and it is like does the does me coming clean like If I cover this up and no one ever knows Like do the ends of all these evil men staying in jail like justify the means of like deceit

Dave Lester (01:47:49.152)
Yeah, and that's...

Dave Lester (01:48:05.435)
Yeah, I mean, Nolan never makes this stuff easy, does he? I mean, because if you could accept, you know, maybe Al Pacino's character Dormer's reputation gets destroyed. Okay, like we could maybe accept that, but no, there's this other layer of now internal affairs is gonna look at each and every criminal that Dormer put away and how many of these guys are gonna get let back out. This is not an easy situation by any stretch.

Eli Price (01:48:10.957)
No.

Eli Price (01:48:29.922)
Yeah.

Eli Price (01:48:33.226)
Right. Because yeah, the reality is there's holes in every case. So if you have a guy that has been found out as like planting evidence, then any sort of doubt that you can plant in any case in the past, which is almost certainly there, is going to be utilized. That's a very real thing in our legal system. And so he's playing on that. And I do think.

Dave Lester (01:48:38.304)
Yes.

Eli Price (01:49:03.082)
You know, Nolan, I think as his career goes on, sometimes gets accused of like over utilizing exposition. Um, but I do think in this one, like that's very much not the case. And I don't know how much of that is because he had someone else, uh, you know, as a main writer, um, but a lot of these things we're talking about are like, there's moments where there's like.

you know, confession of things, but a lot of this stuff is kind of just under the surface the whole time. Just kind of like simmering there, these, all these ideas, which I really like. One of the things that I thought was an interesting thought, it's actually we, you know, we talked about in the intro, Elijah Davidson's book. He also has these little like

almost devotional-like books that are based on directors, and he has one on Nolan called Transcending Time. And in his little write-up on this movie, he talked about how doubt is used as more of a pursuit of truth. And he kind of talks about how, like, a lot of times Nolan sees certainty as a prison, which I thought was a really interesting thought, and I think rings true in this,

the more that Pacino doubts what he's done and where his moral standing is and what he's done, the more he actually wants the truth to come to light. And I think that really comes through with the way he interacts with Ellie Burr. Not just signing off on the thing, pushing her to pursue the truth, not like...

You know at the end like he won't let her throw the bullet away like he wants the truth to come to light and I think a lot of that does stem from That doubt and you know, he talks about in that little like devotional how doubt Creates room for like faith and it creates room for uh in space for mercy um, and I just thought that was a really interesting idea that really like

Eli Price (01:51:24.594)
The idea of like certainty when you become so certain it can be imprisoning Whereas like if you lean into doubt there's room for like growth and room for like It creates like a path to more truth I just thought that was a really interesting thought that he had pointed out

Dave Lester (01:51:46.495)
Yeah, the truth, the truth is that we as human beings have limitations. And, and the limitations is where the need for faith comes in, um, as, as a truth about human nature and, and yeah, where we're at as human beings for sure.

Eli Price (01:51:52.866)
Right.

Eli Price (01:52:00.014)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (01:52:07.434)
Right. Yeah. And he's just like, man, dormer there at the end is just so, I guess, weighed down by that, the weight of all of that. And and it just all culminates like the physical exhaustion and like the moral and psychological exhaustion just like all culminate. And so like when he says when he says those like to like, just let me sleep.

Dave Lester (01:52:17.696)
Yes.

Eli Price (01:52:36.45)
Like you really feel it. And I almost feel like with everything that leads up to that, I almost feel like there's this degree to which like his death is like really like a resetting of the moral order of things. He passes away and expires and finally like sleeps.

Dave Lester (01:52:38.626)
Yes.

Eli Price (01:53:05.318)
And you know more than one way Um so that the truth can come finally come to light um And I just think that's a really interesting idea like he By the end of the end I think that's why I said at the move at the beginning like this is This doesn't feel like a fincher movie because I think there is hope um in that like there's The way that like he dot

Dave Lester (01:53:12.771)
Correct, yeah.

Eli Price (01:53:33.726)
You know, it is dark, you know in a way he dies there at the end Which is not what you would typically see in a movie like this So and I think actually no one had written another ending Because he was worried that the studio wasn't gonna let him allow him to let dormer die and Soderbergh was like no You've got a you need to let him

You need to let him die like Soderbergh was reading his other ending. I was like no you can't do that and WB let it happen. So and I think that's good because I think I think if he would have lived and survived the incident It would have actually like not created the room for hope and truth that it actually creates with his death Which is a kind of I guess a little bit paradoxical you would think like

Dave Lester (01:54:06.839)
Nice.

Eli Price (01:54:26.71)
The death would be the darker ending but in this case, I really do feel like the death is the more hopeful ending because He's able to let the truth come to he's able to die and to sleep knowing that the truth will come to light And knowing that like it's almost like he's been absolved in a way Of all that guilt and weight that he's been carrying and he can finally rest Yeah

Dave Lester (01:54:54.823)
Yeah, I think that's absolutely what it is and that's why it kind of becomes a morality play to circle back around Hillary's swank goes to throw the bullet and looks at him and says you know what nobody has to know because he had just saved her life he courageously you know dropped down into the water from the pier that they were on and he went over and fought with Robin Williams and that ended up how it ended and

Eli Price (01:55:02.935)
Yeah.

Eli Price (01:55:19.053)
Mm-hmm.

Dave Lester (01:55:22.271)
And she's like, no one, you know, no one has to know. And he stops her for throwing it. And his line was, don't lose your way. Don't lose your way. That's the morality play because he's saying, look, we can, we can talk about my reputation is going to be destroyed. Maybe people will be let out of prison. Lawyers are going to be going back to court and doing appeals based on what's going to be found out about me, but let the truth come out. And more than that, he dies. He rests.

Eli Price (01:55:30.986)
Right. Yeah.

Dave Lester (01:55:51.483)
knowing that he didn't corrupt Hillary Swank's character, Ellie. He says, no, don't do this. You tell the truth. I have been living in hell. You do not want to come here. Tell the truth. And that's, that's the morality play of it.

Eli Price (01:55:55.539)
Yeah.

Eli Price (01:56:07.314)
Yeah. And it really rang like as just a really beautiful way to kind of wrap up everything. In my opinion, just that idea of truth coming to light, that idea of not losing your way. He knows she's been investigating him hard. She's seen

she's seen the darkness there and for him to like

Prevent her to show her with his life and death really like that. It's not worth it Is really like it's a beauty. It's it's almost sacrificial in a way, you know I'm probably reading a little bit too much into it there But just the more we talk about it. It does feel in a in a in a little bit of a way a bit of like a sacrificial act of like I'm

I have lived this life and died because of it so that you know, you can find you can have a better path and so Yeah Yeah, I guess like kind of wrapping things up my final thought we've kind of been like all around it but um just that I Guess the final thought I wanted to end on is just the idea of guilt

Um, being a transformative, I guess, um, a transformative force in, in our, in our lives as just human beings. Um, cause obviously guilt is a heavy, heavy theme here and what we do with our guilt, how we carry it. Um, and I don't know, like I, I was just thinking about dormers character and how like

Eli Price (01:58:04.95)
the more guilt he felt, the more unsure of who he was. Like, the more unsure about his identity he was. You know, you start off and you're trying to do, he is trying to do good, but the more guilt he carries, the more he questions the goodness of what he's doing, and the more willing he is to do, you know, something questionable.

to kind of cover up to make himself look good. And it's like this cycle, this never ending cycle that it can put you in. And really like I wrote down that like sometimes guilt can even make our innocence feel oppressive and weighty. Just thinking about like we were talking about his perspective in that fog scene, shooting cap.

and how like in my mind like he didn't mean to do it like he was obviously he wasn't innocent in the sense that like he didn't shoot them because he did shoot him and kill him he's guilty in that way but he's innocent in the sense of like his motive he didn't have a motive of I need to silence Hap he was just trying to get this killer and so like

But even that innocence becomes like oppressive in his life because of his guilt. And I don't know, it even like begins distorting his memories, you know. The weight of his guilt distorts even his recollection of what happened to the point where he doesn't know why he did what he did. He doesn't even know like who he is in the sense of like, am I good or am I bad?

Dave Lester (01:59:48.724)
Uh huh.

Eli Price (02:00:02.634)
Am I on the right path? and so I don't know it just it's just something that like really like was rolling around in my head after watching this movie of just thinking about like man that We need to have those confessional scenes with Rachel ASAP like in our lives when we when we start to feel

that we're carrying around like guilt. Because like bringing things to light and bringing, you know, making deceit into moments of truth is just, it's freeing. And I do think that this movie is a bit of a moral lesson in that sense of like, you know, don't carry around.

don't carry around guilt, you know, and so, you know, if you're listening to this and you're carrying around to get some guilt, find, uh, find your own confessional booth. And I don't necessarily mean, you know, walk into a Roman Catholic church and go into the booth, but, you know, find someone you can talk to, uh, about, about it, whether it's, you know, a friend or a family member or, you know, a professional.

Dave Lester (02:01:09.825)
Yeah.

Eli Price (02:01:25.482)
Um that can that can help you work through things. Um You know one of the things that's big in popular culture right now is you know talking about mental health and um, I think that's just a Fantastic thing that that's something that is being talked about um widely in culture, um, you know and I just think that carrying around guilt and shame is just so destructive for

our lives are mentally and you know, you know, if you if you believe that we have souls, you know, damaging to your soul and in your personhood and your identity. So yeah, that's just something that was rolling around in my head that I just wanted to share as kind of a final thought for this one. Yeah, did you have any thoughts on that or just a final thought for yourself?

Dave Lester (02:02:21.687)
No, that was great. I think guilt is something that you can feel immediately after doing something that you know is wrong. But then that can morph into shame, which is something that's more long lasting. And shame is bad. If, yeah, definitely if you're feeling shame, something is wrong. I mean, and that's, I agree with what you're saying. Yeah. And so I hear that with what you're saying.

Eli Price (02:02:31.957)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (02:02:36.46)
Yeah.

Eli Price (02:02:43.454)
Yeah, that is a good distinction for sure. Yeah, because guilt can just be a correction, like a corrective thought. Like, I did this thing, I shouldn't have done it. But it does morph into something more, which shame is, I guess, a good, yeah.

Dave Lester (02:02:58.507)
If it's long lasting. Yep. And that's where, that's where therapy can come in. I mean, as Christians, we believe God, Jesus forgives us and gives us grace and loves us and embraces us and that can be transformational with therapy. I mean, it's all those, all those things together for people.

Eli Price (02:03:04.237)
Yeah.

Eli Price (02:03:15.582)
Yeah. And I even think, you know, man, you know, I would rather you like not shut, shut your ears off if like the Christian talk like turns you off to listening. But like, you know, I believe that it's just a common, you know, there's the theology term of common grace where, you know, we think that, you know,

God has good things that are not just for people that believe in him, but that are just kind of common graces that are that everyone experiences. And I think that confession is one of those that like can be freeing, even if like you're closed off to the idea of God or Christianity or religion. Like confession is still a powerful act that can be freeing.

Mentally and you know, however you want to think about it, you know, I just you know I just to say like I don't want people to like listen to this and think like oh, that's just a Christian thing Like no like it's very much just a human a human thing that we need to act on Yeah, right

Dave Lester (02:04:15.424)
Yeah.

Dave Lester (02:04:32.795)
I concur. Same thing with telling the truth, which is what insomnia had on its mind. Telling the truth is freeing. Telling the truth is liberating.

Eli Price (02:04:38.699)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (02:04:42.482)
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah Um, I guess to close out, uh, you know, I always like to um to talk about arbitrary subjective ratings of movies, uh It's um, you know at the end of the day, it's it doesn't ratings don't mean anything but um, but it's fun to talk about anyway um I uh, I personally have this one I had it rated as uh, like so like thinking about

just like letterbox does the five stars and that's where I usually am rating things on. I had it rated a four stars and after this watch, I don't know, I'm like teetering between three and a half and four. Just this little film studies book, which by the way, I've recommended it before. There's this guy, George Argyle or Argyle that makes these little film studies books that are really cool. They're just like,

printed by Amazon, I think. Like he probably just uploads a PDF and Amazon will print them for him when people order them. But they have like these, yeah, absolutely. But they have these like little critique, like critique helps where you can like go through and rate it for like each aspect of the filmmaking. And I don't know, that's, it's just, again, it's kind of like meaningless in the grand scheme of things.

Dave Lester (02:05:47.491)
Oh yeah, the self publishing world.

Eli Price (02:06:07.246)
And it's very subjective, but it's fun for me to go through and think about where I would rate the writing and the cinematography and the composition and the editing. But yeah, so I still have this. I haven't really changed where I have it in Nolan's filmography. It's for me, it's still kind of like in that bottom tier with Following and Batman.

I mean, Dark Knight Rises and that kind of section of Nolan's film, maybe Tenet is kind of in there too. But I haven't seen that since theaters. So I'm looking forward to revisiting that one. But yeah, that's not saying anything negative about the movie because Nolan is one of those filmmakers where there's none of his movies that I dislike. I like all of his movies. And so, but yeah, it's just, I guess, like when I think about

It's more of like, it's less of an indictment on insomnia and more just, I like these other ones more. If that makes sense. But yeah, where does this one sit for you?

Dave Lester (02:07:11.947)
Yeah.

Dave Lester (02:07:18.015)
That totally makes sense and we're on pretty similar wavelengths, but for me, I think I would I would give this movie four stars I can maybe be convinced to go up to four and a half, but I try to you know I hardly give anything five stars So but four is definitely a great movie for sure And I think I think you hit the nail on the head which Nolan has made so many good films. I think for me

Eli Price (02:07:28.096)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (02:07:39.767)
Mm-hmm.

Dave Lester (02:07:45.907)
I think this is a vastly underrated Nolan movie, but it's probably still mid-tier just because of the quality that he's put out. So it's probably somewhere in the middle for me.

Eli Price (02:07:55.742)
Yeah, yeah, that's fair. And yeah, it's just one of those things that's fun to talk. It's the most fun when you get to talk to somebody that has such a vastly different opinion on something than you. That's always a good time, I guess, depending on your personality. My personality, I really enjoy debating something. A good, fun, hearty debate is enjoyable.

to me but uh yeah that so that was insomnia obviously next we're gonna be talking about Batman Begins Warner Brothers was happy with the hundred and fourteen million dollars insomnia brought into the box office and decided to throw even more money no one's way with Batman Begins so I'm excited to jump into that next week

for a.

Dave Lester (02:08:54.199)
When you make a $70 million profit for a movie studio, they might just give you Batman.

Eli Price (02:09:00.146)
Yeah Exactly. So keep that in mind if you're a future filmmaker, you know, make sure you get at least 70 million dollars Profit on your first few movies and you're destined to get a Batman movie, I guess I guess that might be that might be a good thing or a bad thing these days To get stuck on a superhero movie, but that's a whole nother

Dave Lester (02:09:17.891)
I'm gonna go to bed.

Eli Price (02:09:30.462)
topic of discussion But yeah, I am really looking forward to Revisiting Batman begins and talking about that next week but for now we're gonna take a quick break and come back with our movie draft and Yeah, I'm looking forward to that. So we will see you in just a second

Eli Price (02:09:54.91)
Yeah, so right here, I'll just kind of, all of this I'll edit out until we jump back on. Yeah, so if you need to hop off and take care of anything, feel free.

Dave Lester (02:10:07.679)
Yeah, I'll just be like two minutes and then, yeah, if we could try to have, do you think it will be done by nine, my time? So that'd be Louisiana 11, your time? Okay, cool. Yeah, this will be a minute and.

Eli Price (02:10:17.919)
Yes.

Yeah, yeah, we'll run through this movie draft. We'll hop right into it when we jump back on.

Dave Lester (02:10:27.743)
Okay, very cool. This was a lot of fun. I'll be right back.

Eli Price (02:10:29.13)
Yep. Yeah.

Dave Lester (02:12:09.836)
Hello, hello.

Dave Lester (02:12:16.775)
up this handy-dandy list. Oh, no worries, bring up your list again here.

Eli Price (02:12:17.358)
Sorry, I had muted.

Eli Price (02:12:29.974)
Yeah, so we can kind of play this.

Eli Price (02:12:37.792)
Really, as long as you have like... We can do less than five, depending on like... Do you see like... If you see like ten-ish movies that you're like, oh yeah, I would want to have that one. Then we have, we definitely have enough to draft like five each. But...

Dave Lester (02:12:59.719)
Okay. Yeah, that sounds good. Yeah, I could use some frying.

Eli Price (02:13:04.318)
Okay. And then usually when we do these, I take the like the movie of discussion like off the table. So like we can keep the original insomnia on the on the table, but not like the not Nolan's insomnia. Yeah.

Dave Lester (02:13:23.679)
That's fair.

Eli Price (02:13:26.602)
Cool. Yeah, we'll just jump back in a second. I will.

Eli Price (02:13:36.742)
And just to be clear before we do that, you can take either the original or the American remake. So you know.

Dave Lester (02:13:49.189)
Either or. Okay.

Eli Price (02:13:50.75)
Yeah, either or is fine. So like if you wanted to take the original insomnia like you could sort of thing. And I'll explain that so that the listener understands that also.

Dave Lester (02:14:03.387)
Okay, sounds good, man.

Eli Price (02:14:08.191)
Okay, I'll do a quick pause so that I can find the little space in the end for my editing and then I'll jump back in

Eli Price (02:14:24.49)
Hey, everyone. Welcome back to the Establishing Shot. I hope you enjoyed our discussion of Insomnia. We're gonna skip our movie news, mainly because there's not a whole lot happening in the movie world right now. Just a few, at the time of this recording, I think Blue Beetle is the biggest, most recent.

release and I haven't seen that and haven't heard a lot about it. So I just feel like there's not a whole lot to discuss in the in the movie. Yeah, yeah, there there's always one floating around out there somewhere. But so, yeah, we're going to we're going to jump right into what the people like. And that's the movie draft.

Dave Lester (02:15:00.579)
There's always a comic book movie, comic book movie somewhere.

Eli Price (02:15:16.922)
If this is your first time tuning in basically our movie drafts you can think of it as like Picking the picking the best kickball team in the schoolyard, you know You got all the all this all your classmates standing there and you want to make sure you pick the best players first For your team as the team captain So we're gonna do that with movies and I thought it would be a fun kind of tie-in to insomnia thinking about

how it's an American remake of a foreign film. And so I thought it would be a fun tie in to draft foreign films that have American remakes and their American remakes. So basically like are the movies that we're gonna be drafting from are both the foreign film that would be considered like their original and the American remakes.

So I don't want to give away anything that we might draft. But so for instance, the easy example would be Insomnia, since we just talked about it. So we could draft the original Insomnia, if that was the one we liked more, or we could draft the American remake that we just talked about, and so on and so forth, with all movies that

foreign film that have an American remake So yeah, I'll try to link maybe I had sent Dave a really extensive list that someone had made on letterboxed of foreign films and their American remakes Which is that it was actually really fun to kind of scroll through that list When I was thinking about this. Yeah, he's if you're if you're watching on YouTube. He held it up to the camera, but um

Yeah, I'll try to link that in the show notes so that if you're interested in just like exploring that list so that you can tell us what movies we should have drafted but didn't you can. But yeah, we're gonna jump right into it. Dave, I always give my first time guests the first pick. So yeah, if you want to jump right in and take you know what you see as the best movie on the board, then go for it.

Dave Lester (02:17:39.031)
I am honored to be on the show and to get the first pick and I think I'm gonna have to take Seven Samurai by Kurosawa off the board.

Eli Price (02:17:41.838)
Ha ha.

Eli Price (02:17:47.447)
Yeah.

Yes. Yeah, that was definitely at the top of my list. It's interesting. Maybe when we finish, we can talk about the remakes just in case. So I don't want to talk too much about like, hey, this was remade into this American movie just in case one of us want to take the American version of it later in the draft.

But maybe like when we when we wrap up the draft we can kind of talk about like oh this I drafted this and these were some of the American remakes of this or whatever Yeah, seven samurai is just um, it's a masterpiece It it's just an incredible epic samurai film by Kurosawa for sure Yeah, I think it really is one of the best films available for this kind of

This the you know the movies that are available for this draft for sure I'm gonna go I'm actually good one thing that I did notice is that like most of these movies the original Foreign language film version is the like the better But and I can't speak to it for the pick I'm about to make because I haven't seen their original foreign language film that

seems to have good ratings also, but I'm going to go with Scorsese's The Departed. And we can talk about, we can mention what it's adapted from. I don't know if you are interested in the movie it was adapted from for your picks, but I love The Departed. I think it's, I think it's one of Scorsese's more like, obviously like none of Scorsese's movies.

Eli Price (02:19:38.658)
They all deal with some pretty dark stuff and some guilt as we've just been talking about, but in just the sense of its moviemaking and what he's doing like plot-wise with these characters and the actors he has, I feel like it's one of his most fun movies just to watch. And yeah, I love The Departed.

Dave Lester (02:20:01.963)
Great movie. I love Scorsese as well. And yeah, I think I would agree. It's his most commercial type film. I don't mean that as an insult at all. It's, yeah, it's more of a traditional movie movie, you know, where he's like, let's just have some fun, get a big cast and go for it. So I enjoyed that movie as well.

Eli Price (02:20:11.021)
No, yeah.

Eli Price (02:20:19.31)
Mm-hmm Yeah Yeah, and it just it just really works. It's it's a great movie And so yeah, that's my pick. Where where do you want to go with your? second pick

Dave Lester (02:20:34.131)
Number two, I'm gonna go with Fritz Long's M from 1931. This is a creepy movie, 1931, and Long, of course, who directed Metropolis in the 20s. This is big time film history stuff here, but if you haven't seen M, I think it's even an approachable film for being in the early 30s, just a masterpiece. Yep.

Eli Price (02:20:39.394)
Yes.

Eli Price (02:20:48.759)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (02:20:58.55)
Right. Yeah, I actually recently caught up with Metropolis and it was incredible what he did with that film. M is actually one, my brother-in-law did the Isle of Dogs episode with me. He got me M for the Criterion Collection, M for Christmas.

Dave Lester (02:21:09.555)
Yeah.

Eli Price (02:21:28.582)
either last year or the year before and I still haven't watched it. This is yeah, this is my confessional time. I still haven't put that disc in the player. And but when I watch Metropolis, I remember it. I was like, I have the criterion of him. I need to get to that soon. So, yeah, definitely one that I. Yeah.

Dave Lester (02:21:32.439)
Oh

Dave Lester (02:21:36.939)
of it.

Dave Lester (02:21:47.831)
That's... I envy you that you have that as a first watch coming up. That's... it's a great, great movie.

Eli Price (02:21:55.902)
Yeah. So, um, yeah. And that's probably one of the more fun things about this draft is this is out of all the drafts I've ever done, this probably will have the most films that like a lot of people haven't seen. Um, just because there's a lot, a lot of people just don't watch foreign language films, which is unfortunate. So hopefully this will be a spur to get people to watch some more foreign language films and I'm going to go with, uh, with one for my second pick. I'm going to go.

with Andre Tarkovsky's Solaris from 1972. Tarkovsky has become like one of my favorite directors. I just think he makes incredibly poetic and just psychologically intriguing and complex films. And Solaris is one of those that I just, it's, I don't know, it's a sci-fi film that just like,

leaves you just blown away and confused about what happened in the movie, but also just about life in general. And so, yeah, I love Solaris. I probably watched that a year and a half or two ago for the first time and just was like... It was the first Tarkovsky I watched and I was just like, man, I've got to watch more Tarkovsky. So, yeah.

Dave Lester (02:23:06.452)
I'm going to go to bed.

Dave Lester (02:23:24.939)
Nice.

Eli Price (02:23:25.578)
Yeah, it's your third pick.

Dave Lester (02:23:28.447)
Yeah, I've not seen Solaris the original. I've seen the Soderberg remake, which I'm kind of meh on. Yeah, I've just seen that one and it was okay. It's not bad, but I need to see the original. I'm gonna go with Let the Right One In, which I believe is a Swedish film, a vampire movie. Just absolutely incredible.

Eli Price (02:23:34.782)
I haven't seen that one.

Eli Price (02:23:51.682)
Yes.

Dave Lester (02:23:56.607)
You know, this came out, when did this come out? Let me click on this here. It came out in 2008. So we were about to have unleashed on American cinemas the Twilight movie franchise, which I am proud to say I have never seen a Twilight movie, but I'm so glad that I watched Let the Right One In about vampires and just an amazing layered, complicated movie, highly recommended if you haven't seen it.

Eli Price (02:24:14.058)
Me either.

Eli Price (02:24:26.59)
Yeah, that's another one that's been, you know, one that when I see it I'm like, oh yeah, I need to watch that and just haven't. So I like to watch a new vampire movie, at least one new vampire movie every October. So maybe I'll make that the top of my list for vampire movie in spooky month this year. Yeah, so for my third pick,

Uh, I'm going to go.

I'm going to go with the original Godzilla. You know, Godzilla has... Yes. Yeah. From, I think 1954. Ishiro Honda, the original Godzilla. I just feel like it's actually like... When people think of Godzilla, they just think about monsters destroying and fighting and all that.

Dave Lester (02:25:06.396)
Oh, the 1950s song?

Okay.

Eli Price (02:25:30.014)
This movie is very much not interested in any of those aspects that people think about. It's more interested in... I mean, if you just think about this was made in 1954 in Japan, it's very much in your face as a metaphor for nuclear warfare when you watch it. And just to think about, they're not that far removed from...

from those atomic bombs being dropped and to have like the fortitude to like make a movie like this that is exploring the trauma of what that did to their country is just incredible. And you know, it launched a franchise of monsters and destruction and you know,

I even like, like I think I like the, there's been some American remakes that have been fine, you know, pretty good, but I don't think any of them since the original really compare to it.

Dave Lester (02:26:44.363)
Nice.

That's a good one.

Eli Price (02:26:48.01)
Alright, this is your fourth pick, so you have two more, including this one.

Dave Lester (02:26:53.911)
More pits.

Eli Price (02:26:56.91)
Two more including this one.

Dave Lester (02:26:57.091)
I'm gonna go... Let me just do one that'll be controversial just to see if I can ruffle some feathers. I'm gonna pick the girl with the dragon tattoo but the American remake with Daniel Craig. Because, yes, with Fincher. Because I do think it is actually better than the original. I've seen them both. Yep.

Eli Price (02:27:04.26)
Ooh yeah.

Eli Price (02:27:10.118)
Okay, yeah, Fincher, right?

Eli Price (02:27:19.27)
Okay. I haven't seen either.

Dave Lester (02:27:23.191)
Okay.

Eli Price (02:27:25.378)
So I can't, I have no opinion.

Dave Lester (02:27:25.771)
Yeah, it's probably worth watching both, but I think Kentra's version tops it.

Eli Price (02:27:35.294)
Yeah, yeah, I know I think Daniel Craig is a great actor so That you know that probably I'm sure that has a fat plays a part in it to a certain degree Okay, yeah As far as I know really good pick. I just had I can't have an official opinion on it because I haven't seen it Yeah, I'm gonna go so

Eli Price (02:28:04.978)
Yeah, I think I'm going to go with one. And so you picked seven samurai Kurosawa film. It has it has actually a few remakes. There's actually like a few Kurosawa films that have spurred on American remakes. And I'm picking between two. And I think I'm going to go with Yojimbo.

Just because of the movies that it inspired actually like mean something for American cinema. If you've never seen Yojimbo, it's a samurai that goes into a town. There's two competing families that are feuding and fighting for control. And he just plays both sides.

Eli Price (02:29:04.278)
very like mo- he- he's like the movie- Japanese movie star, um, Toshiro Mufune, who's- he's a- he's a lead in Seven Samurai 2, but um, he just like has this like movie star like charisma to him as a Japanese actor that's really fun to watch, um, and um, I'll- I'll mention the- the movie that in- that it unofficially inspired, uh, maybe when we finish, um-

But yeah, I'm gonna go with Yojimbo here.

Dave Lester (02:29:36.859)
Alright, well for this is my last pick. I am going to I'm gonna go really off the rails. I think I just have to there's so many great movies here that People would probably say well, why did you pick this one or that you know, Rashomon is still on the table The Talented Mr. Ripley is actually really great movie. That was remade from I think strangers on the train by Hitchcock

Eli Price (02:29:38.855)
Last pick.

Yeah.

Eli Price (02:29:55.306)
Right.

Eli Price (02:30:00.686)
Mm-hmm.

Dave Lester (02:30:04.759)
But I'm gonna pick a movie called The Vanishing, which came out in 1993. It has Jeff Bridges, Kiefer Sutherland, and Sandra Bullock. And I mean, is this in the pantheon of great movies? Probably not. But this movie means something to me because I went to see this with my dad when I was 13. And it was filmed out here in the Seattle area in a place called North Bend.

Eli Price (02:30:09.634)
Okay.

Dave Lester (02:30:33.383)
which is right by Mount Si, which is a very popular hiking spot out here. And so the gas station that a key scene was filmed in, I have been to several times, it's so interesting looking at, you know, where things were laid out in this gas station parking lot. I think the interior of the station that people had seen the movie probably happened to the movie studio. Um, but a lot of the exterior shots were, you know, Mount St. Helen's out here in Washington state at North Bend.

And it was, as a 13 year old kid, it was just incredible to see an area of the world that you, that I lived in, kind of up on the big screen. And I really, I'm a huge fan of Jeff Bridges. I think, you know, like I said, it's probably not a great movie. They probably could have cast somebody better than Kiefer Sutherland, I think, in this film. But Jeff Bridges is so appropriately creepy and sort of a complex character. The...

Eli Price (02:31:11.894)
Yeah.

Eli Price (02:31:21.812)
Yeah.

Dave Lester (02:31:30.955)
The foreign language movie, which I think is called Spore Loose, I don't know if I'm pronouncing that right, that is also... That's actually probably better than the American remake to be honest. I'm just picking this for personal reasons. But definitely worth watching both of them.

Eli Price (02:31:46.986)
Yeah, yeah for sure. I Haven't seen any either the I don't really know anything about either of them. So yeah, that's definitely one that I'll That I'll add to the list Sounds sounds fun. I really enjoy Jeff Bridges I haven't seen Kiefer Sutherland in enough movies. I remember watching like 24 a little bit back in the day with the family, but um, but yeah, I haven't

I haven't really seen him in a whole lot of like films. So yeah, that would be interesting to see

Dave Lester (02:32:17.611)
Yeah, you know, he's adequate in it. I, you know, you just watch it and you're thinking, Sandra Bullock was pretty early in her career. I think this was before speed. So she was, you know, a natural talent and Jeff Bridges, you just wish somebody maybe could have been cast that could hold their own with those two, you know, great performers.

Eli Price (02:32:40.71)
Yeah, yeah for sure Um, yeah for my last one just to mix things up a little bit And get a little a little comedy in here. I'm gonna go with one that I watched recently Saw on this list and I was like, oh this looks like a fun movie And I'm gonna go with the birdcage Which the tie-in here at Robin Williams It was really funny

Dave Lester (02:33:03.523)
Oh.

Dave Lester (02:33:07.082)
Yeah.

Eli Price (02:33:10.95)
It was really funny. You know, it's uh, you know depending on Depending on how you feel about it can be a little risque. You got the drag queen Drag queen character of Nathan Lane who Nathan Lane is hilarious in this in this movie Most people probably know him actually probably most people would

Dave Lester (02:33:12.351)
Indeed.

Dave Lester (02:33:24.44)
Hahaha

Eli Price (02:33:38.986)
recognize him as the voice of Timon in Lion King to be honest. But but yeah, he's hilarious in it. And you got Robin Williams, who's just he's not like playing the like wacky Robin Williams character, but still very funny in this. Gene Hackman is in it of all people. And yeah, it's just like this.

It's kind of like a situational comedy. You've got the son of this gay man who is in a relationship with a guy that does drag that wants to marry the daughter of this very moral conservative senator and Shenanigans ensue. I thought it was really funny and it's fun to get the Robin Williams tie in too. So yeah, I'm gonna go.

I'll go with the Birdcage for my last pick. It's not my favorite of the ones that are left. Like you said, Rashomon on the board, Eight and a Half and Breathless, some great movies. Yeah, but yeah, just to mix things up, get a little comedy in there, I'll go Birdcage. I could have went with one that you would have probably lambasted me for.

Dave Lester (02:34:47.996)
Oh yeah, both of those are excellent, yeah.

Eli Price (02:35:04.814)
because I jumped on and saw that you had rated it one and a half stars. And that's Dinner for Schmucks, which is one of those movies. Yeah, it's one of those movies that is the type of comedy that you either think is funny or you don't. And I just I think it's it makes me laugh. And so I enjoy it. But I figured the Robin Williams tie in would be a little better and save me from from, you know, the.

Dave Lester (02:35:12.191)
Oh yeah, another thing.

Eli Price (02:35:34.384)
being looked down on from your one and a half star rating.

Dave Lester (02:35:37.847)
Nah, man, it's all subjective opinion, right? We all experience movies differently.

Eli Price (02:35:41.154)
Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, I just thought that was funny. Yeah, I'll read through these, our final list. So Dave ended up with seven samurai. M let the right one in the girl with the dragon tattoo, the David Fincher version and the vanishing, which was the George sluizer version.

of that movie. Yeah, right. And I ended up with The Departed, Solaris, the original Tarkovsky version, Godzilla, the original 54 version, Yojimbo and The Bird Cage. So, yeah, a lot of a lot of movies to kind of like add to the list here to watch for both me and hopefully for the listener to

Dave Lester (02:36:10.943)
Yeah, a director I've never heard of other than that movie. Yep.

Eli Price (02:36:40.222)
I had a few kind of like ones that I haven't seen that I'd love to see. Let the right one in and M were on that list that you drafted. So that solidifies those. But also Oldboy, I've never seen that Park Chan Wook movie. It's kind of been released in theaters in some areas, I think too recently. Yeah.

Dave Lester (02:36:59.639)
Yeah, that's worth seeing. Really disturbing, but worth it. Yeah.

Eli Price (02:37:03.402)
Yeah, yeah, never seen that for force majeure is one that I've wanted to see that I've not forget things about and then I've never Yeah, and i've never seen um true lies the schwarzenegger Yeah, that That one was one that I noticed on this list is the an american remake That I was like, oh that would be a fun one to catch up with but yeah None nevertheless, I have not been able to do that

Dave Lester (02:37:10.728)
Likewise, that's a whole other part.

Dave Lester (02:37:18.967)
No.

Dave Lester (02:37:32.491)
Yeah, that's a lot of folks.

Eli Price (02:37:32.79)
But yeah, I did want to mention too, before we wrap things up, a few of these like, so these Kurosawa movies, I think, are very like, influential, like, so Seven Samurai, you know, movies made from it, like Magnificent Seven by Sturgis, which is in its own right, a very good, you know, very well regarded film.

And then you have Yojimbo. If you look into the history, Leoni rejects that a fistful of dollars was made from Yojimbo. But if you actually do some research, it pretty much is a remake of Yojimbo. It's this nameless guy that goes into the town playing both sides of a feud, trying to make money.

Um, and, uh, yeah, so Yojimbo very influential and one of the, the greatest spaghetti Western man with no name trilogies, you know, of all time. And so, um, yeah, I thought that was a pretty cool little, uh, tidbit as far as that goes, but yeah, were there any, um, that we didn't get that we didn't hit that you thought of or wanted to tell people to check out?

Dave Lester (02:38:50.827)
Very cool, yeah.

Dave Lester (02:38:59.747)
Well, we're talking about Kurosawa. I know that George Lucas was heavily influenced for the original Star Wars by Hidden Fortress. I don't think you can call it maybe a direct remake, but I've never seen Hidden Fortress, but I just know that kind of is a film trivia thing. Yeah, I need to check that one out.

Eli Price (02:39:08.454)
Okay. Right.

Eli Price (02:39:14.348)
Me neither.

Eli Price (02:39:18.174)
Yeah. Curacao is just incredible. So just any Curacao, I guess, whether there's a remake of it or not.

Dave Lester (02:39:25.066)
Absolutely.

Dave Lester (02:39:29.065)
Oh yeah, totally.

Eli Price (02:39:31.522)
But yeah, just wrapping things up, we'll go ahead and skip the recommendations of the week unless you have a quick one. I actually don't, I can't think of anything off the top of my head. Sometimes I wing it and nothing comes to me.

Dave Lester (02:39:48.312)
Yeah, I'll just put it out there. I think this movie came out recently on Streaming and disk and all that. Are you there? God? It's me Margaret is excellent. That's one of the best ones I've seen this year. Yeah

Eli Price (02:39:58.357)
Yes.

Yes, absolutely. I'll second that recommendation of the week. Definitely one of my favorite films this year so far, for sure. Yeah, that's it. Do you want to plug where you can find you on socials and maybe your podcast as well before we head out?

Dave Lester (02:40:06.539)
Very, very good.

Dave Lester (02:40:23.295)
Yeah. Yeah, thank you. I really appreciated being here. This was a lot of fun talking about Christopher Nolan and insomnia. You can find me on Elon Musk hellscape of X, also known as Twitter. I am at Dave J. Lester, Letterboxx for all you film lovers, which I'm assuming you are if you listen to this podcast, Dave J. Lester on Letterboxx. And then my podcasts are veterans.

Culture Wars which you can find most places where you get podcasts and I'm Hopefully gonna be out with a second podcast called does the Bible say that? Hopefully soon. So thank you for having me

Eli Price (02:41:02.582)
Great. Yeah, absolutely. And I will make sure to link all of that in the show notes so that you can find it even easier. And yeah, hopefully I'll be able to link that new podcast to if it comes out after the show releases, I'll make sure to go back in and edit it after it releases so that I can get that link in there for people that may be revisiting this later, too. But yeah.

Dave Lester (02:41:30.361)
Thank you, I appreciate that.

Eli Price (02:41:32.262)
Yeah, absolutely. It was a pleasure to have you on. I really appreciate it I thought the conversation was great today. And so um, yeah Uh, yeah people go check out veterans of culture war Be looking for dave's new podcast and um, and yeah, go follow go follow him on twitter always fun to engage with him there and um his reviews on letterbox are always fun, too, so uh uh, yeah, just uh

just really appreciative of you coming on and look forward to maybe having you on again in the future for another series. So yeah, absolutely. But yeah, so this has been, you've been listening to the Establishing Podcast. I've been Eli Price for Dave Lester. We will see you next time.

Dave Lester (02:42:12.095)
Yeah, I'm gonna be there. We'd love it.