The Dark Knight Rises (w/ Zachary Lee)

Eli Price (00:02.223)
Hello everyone and welcome to the Establishing Shot, a podcast where we do deep dives into directors and their filmographies. I'm here today with Zachary Lee. I'm Eli Price and we're going to be talking about The Dark Knight Rises for episode 24 of the podcast. I'm excited. We're really like getting deep into Christopher Nolan's filmography at this point.

And, uh, and really like excited to wrap up the, this Batman trilogy, um, her dark night trilogy, I guess I should say that's the more proper, uh, term for it. But, uh, yeah, I'm excited. Uh, we're going to, um, get into dark night rises in just a minute. Uh, I would, um, if this is your first time jumping into the podcast, uh, every, every few episodes, I like to remind people that, um, the format is like going through.

a director's filmography movie by movie. So yeah, if this is your first time jumping in, feel free to, you know, listen to it, uh, however you want. Obviously it's, it's a free country. So if you want to just pick episodes that are more interesting to you, feel free. But I recommend listening through, uh, if you can, uh, starting from the beginning where we do an overview of Christopher Nolan and then go movie by movie, it's one of my favorite ways to watch movies as

going through a director's filmography and just seeing their techniques and themes throughout their movies. So I recommend that. But before we jump into the Dark Knight Rises, I wanted to introduce my guest, Zachary Lee. Zachary is currently in Chicago and he writes for a few different publications freelance. But yeah, I'll let.

Zachary kind of tell you a little bit about himself and that. So Zachary, welcome onto the podcast.

Zachary Lee (02:04.394)
Yeah, thanks so much for having me, Eli. It's great. I'm a big fan of, I've been listening through the past episodes. So I'm grateful to be able to share about Dark Knight Rises which is my favorite of the trilogy. I don't know if you, I don't think you knew that going in but it's, that was my decision for wanting to pick, to choose it and talk about it. But yeah, I'm, yeah, as you shared, I'm a freelance writer. So I just finished up, my most recent work was I finished up.

Eli Price (02:18.275)
Didn't. Yeah.

Zachary Lee (02:32.49)
Stint with Sojourners, which is a faith and justice magazine that's located out in DC. And I was the online editorial assistant there. But right now, I'm back in Chicago applying, you know, looking at other jobs, hopefully in the film and media lens, but currently freelance for Sojourners, also for Christianity Today and Think Christians. So yeah, definitely faith and film and intersection of that is something I really love. So hopefully we can get into some of that here today.

Eli Price (02:35.888)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (02:57.487)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I know I've, I've read at least one or two of your pieces on think Christian for, uh, for movies that I like to jump in and see if there's articles on movies that I want to kind of read some other insights on. So yeah, it's, uh, Zachary has definitely some good, uh, work thinking about, you know, faith and film and that intersection. And so, yeah. Um, really cool. Uh,

Yeah, so what was your kind of journey into loving film and really getting more deeper into film?

Zachary Lee (03:42.442)
Yeah, it's a funny question as I was kind of thinking through that because I have to divide like my film experience into sort of two eras. So it's pre-Chicken Run and then post Finding Nemo. So I'll break that down in a bit. So growing up, I think like the first movie theater experience that I remember was watching the added acclamation Chicken Run movie, which I think is actually getting a sequel this year, which is like the bane of my existence. But...

Eli Price (03:50.968)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (04:10.715)
Okay.

Zachary Lee (04:11.39)
Anyway, we'll talk about that later. But Claymate, like, it freaked me out as a kid. It still sort of does. Like Wallace and Gromit, like, I do not mess with that. I don't want to watch that. I know some people may feel otherwise, but that kept me out of the theater forever. Like, basically, I watched it, was traumatized. My parents would try to take me to the theater. They would say, like, explicitly, they said like, Zach, this isn't Chicken Run. There's no Claymation. Like, this is a completely different movie.

Eli Price (04:20.623)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (04:40.178)
And my only response would be no chicken, no chicken. I wouldn't, I was just, that was my automatic response when it was asked. So that was me in movies. I had to find it for most of my, you know, lived experience from what I knew. Then saw Finding Nemo, brought me back to cinema and opened me up, you know, to really wanting to enjoy movies again. So that's kind of a funny, like, you know, like was, you know, not.

Eli Price (04:43.807)
No chicken.

Eli Price (04:54.811)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (05:03.003)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (05:07.638)
Don't talk to me about movies, no chicken, right? Gone into Finding Nemo, love the animation. Obviously that movie, as you look at it, more rich thematically as you get older. And so I'd say from post Finding Nemo to like, I guess now where I am to kind of abridge that gap a bit. I think my dad's a pastor. And so it was fun because I remember when I would hear him give sermon some.

Eli Price (05:20.077)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (05:37.964)
Mm-hmm.

Zachary Lee (05:38.03)
And sometimes as a kid, you're the sermon illustration. So that happened, but sometimes also he would cite films and use that as a sermon illustration. So I remember he used one for Return of the King in general, the third Lord of the Rings movie that I just thought was really fascinating and neat. And I think opened my mind up to movies as being more than just entertainment, you know, that they could have lessons for life. They could, you know, it's not just something you.

Eli Price (05:42.202)
Right.

Eli Price (05:53.36)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (06:02.572)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (06:06.03)
turn on and then turn your brain off, right? So I'd say it was like a combination of that. And then really coming to college where I met a bunch of people in like the Christian fellowship that I was a part of and also writing for the school newspaper, being able to try my hand at doing some movie reviews there that really kind of got me into like thinking about film, talking about film, writing about writing about films. So yeah, it was kind of like a journey.

Eli Price (06:34.059)
Yeah, yeah, that's awesome. I love that. No chicken. I'll have to remember that. That's, I have to remember that when I'm showing my son movies. Make sure I explain claymation. Actually, he's seen like the Christmas ones, like the Rankin-Bass ones. So like Rudolph and whatnot.

Zachary Lee (06:40.322)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (06:46.423)
You

Zachary Lee (06:53.205)
Exactly.

Zachary Lee (06:56.746)
Okay.

Zachary Lee (07:01.714)
Yeah.

Eli Price (07:02.383)
He liked those okay, so maybe he's not turned off by the claymation.

Zachary Lee (07:08.194)
I know he'll have a better, you know, he'll be a bigger cinephile than me, I'm sure. Because like I said, that kept me out of it for a bit. So sorry to all the chicken run claimation lovers who are listening.

Eli Price (07:14.016)
Yeah.

Eli Price (07:18.951)
Yeah, there's some fans out there the chicken run. I think it's fine. I'm not like I wouldn't say I'm a fan but it's you know, it's a fine movie. Yeah.

Zachary Lee (07:26.234)
Right. Exactly. Maybe if this Halloween, that'll be the spooky movie that I watch, you know? I'll just, that'll be, you know, I'll have a send it, you know, character development by watching.

Eli Price (07:33.875)
Yeah. Chicken or it. Yeah.

Yeah, your spooktober movie watching will be all claymation.

Zachary Lee (07:45.742)
that now that you're giving me the idea, I'm like, I don't want to, but you know, you got, this is what it means to, you have to hit. That's exactly, you know, everyone has their own battles, you know, that's exactly true. Some you have to climb out of a pit with a broken back. Some people you got to watch claymation. So, you know, we're in, we all have our own battles.

Eli Price (07:51.515)
You gotta face your fears like Bruce Wayne, right?

Eli Price (08:01.155)
Yeah. Right. We all have our own battles.

Yeah, with that in mind, I was wondering, I always like to ask my guests what their introduction was to the director of choice. Do you remember like the first Nolan movie you saw?

Zachary Lee (08:20.102)
Yes, and it's actually interesting because I'd say when I listened to the Batman Begins episode that you did with Drew and so that was the first Nolan film that I watched but interestingly, yeah, I think interestingly though I'd say my first introduction to like who this Christopher Nolan guy was as a whole was Through the Dark Night and which and I'll explain that in a sec where I because I remember one night you know when the movie had come out this was 2008 so I was probably

Eli Price (08:30.508)
Yeah, same, same.

Eli Price (08:41.572)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (08:48.478)
11 or 10 at the time. And my parents hired a babysitter for my younger brother and me, because they were gonna go on a date night to watch this film. And I remember asking them, oh, what movie are you seeing? They're like, oh, it's this Batman film called The Dark Knight. And at that point, I had seen, my Batman in my mind was, there was this Warner Bros animation show called The Batman, so 2004 to 2008, kind of more like,

Eli Price (09:14.148)
Mm-hmm.

Zachary Lee (09:16.778)
an anime style. So that was it was that and then the you know like Justice League, Justice League Unlimited you know so I know for a lot of people it was Batman the Animated series which I still haven't seen so I should really fix that but um that those that those two were my incarnations.

Eli Price (09:23.075)
Yeah. Oh yeah.

Eli Price (09:27.866)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (09:34.476)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (09:35.874)
you know, the DCAU shows. And so I remember being like, oh, I wanna go see this movie with you guys. And they're like, no, like we're gonna do this, you know, stay at home. So I remember, you know, they came back and, you know, of course I was like mad that I didn't go, but I'm like, I wanna hear about it. So I remember asking them being like, hey, like how was the film? And they liked it, but they were like, no way are you gonna see this until you're older. And...

Eli Price (09:46.543)
Ha ha.

Yeah.

Zachary Lee (10:05.118)
I remember being really frustrated, right? Cause I was like, no, it's like a Batman film, you know? Like, you know, I've seen the cartoons all the time and like, and it's, well, then they're like, well, it's with Joker. And I'm like, no, but like Joker's in the shows, you know? And they were like, no, but like Joker here like uses knives, you know? He doesn't use chemicals or Joker venom. And I, so even then I remember being like, who is this Chris Nolan guy? Like Joker using knives? Like he hasn't read.

Eli Price (10:11.067)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (10:24.282)
Mm-hmm.

Zachary Lee (10:34.314)
comics, obviously. He hasn't seen this show. So I remember like my little beef with Chris Nolan was, you know, I was able to see, you know, he was ruining the Batman mythos and the characters. And, you know, I, my parents were like, you can watch Batman Begins, you know, to start. And maybe when you're older, you can see Dark Knight. So yeah, long way of answering your question. But it was funny. I'd say like, Dark Knight was when I first learned this was a thing. And then I saw

Eli Price (10:52.204)
Yeah.

Eli Price (11:02.423)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's funny. Batman and Gens is kind of like the scarier of the two, I would say, with Scarecrow and the fear gas. I guess Dark Knight is more psychologically not great for younger kids, maybe. So yeah, totally get that. But yeah.

Zachary Lee (11:11.614)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (11:15.662)
Totally.

Zachary Lee (11:24.866)
Yeah, I remember people being like this probably could be rated R even if they either decided to show more or just like even them. I remember people being surprised that they got a PG-13 because they felt like it was so dark and mature, you know, and so I remember so it was a while before I actually saw the Dark Knight.

Eli Price (11:35.576)
Yeah.

Eli Price (11:46.02)
Yeah.

Eli Price (11:51.447)
Yeah, yeah, and it's we talked a little bit about which the Dark Knight episode hasn't released yet at the time that we're recording, but we did talk about like how he just like the way they edited was like they cut at like just the briefest moment before it would have been art like rated R like with like some of the stuff Joker does and you know, like breaking people's necks and stuff like.

Zachary Lee (12:11.783)
Right.

Oh, totally.

Zachary Lee (12:19.657)
Oh yeah.

Eli Price (12:20.715)
Yeah, but it'll like cut away right before he does it. Yeah, that's funny. Yeah, that's awesome. So you obviously saw the Dark Knight Rises eventually and yeah, jumped into, at what point did you kind of like finish the trilogy? Had you seen...

Zachary Lee (12:23.322)
Yeah. So good editing.

Zachary Lee (12:37.663)
Yes.

Eli Price (12:48.079)
The other two, by the time Dark Knight Rises came out in theaters.

Zachary Lee (12:52.218)
Yes, I had and definitely gaps in between. So I think, you know, I said, that one begins the first one probably saw, honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if I saw the Dark Knight and the Dark Knight Rises in the same year, which is funny to think about because that's like, you know, a five year gap from when Dark Knight and the Dark Knight Rises came out. But I wouldn't be surprised if it was like, oh, like old enough now, the new ones coming out, hype machines up there. It's like, this is the time to watch it. And

Eli Price (13:06.297)
Yeah.

Eli Price (13:19.447)
Oh yeah. Mm-hmm.

Zachary Lee (13:21.686)
you know, you can cover this thing that I wasn't able to see before. So yeah, but I did. So it was like Batman Begins, Long Gap, and then kind of those two probably in the same.

Eli Price (13:25.306)
Yeah.

Eli Price (13:31.735)
Yeah. I, um, I have like a pretty distinct memory. I was in college when dark night rises came out. And, um, I have a memory cause I worked at a, like a conference center slash camp ground kind of place, uh, in a Ridgecrest, North Carolina, um, which is like 30 minutes outside of Asheville. Um,

Zachary Lee (13:53.334)
Yeah.

Eli Price (13:59.139)
But like for two summers in college. And so I, uh, I was up there and both summers we went and saw like a midnight premiere one night, like, you know, me and the, the other like commerce center staff. And, uh, yeah, it was, so the first summer that I was there was the dark night rises is the one we went to, and it was like at a huge, like probably like.

Zachary Lee (14:10.222)
That's great.

Zachary Lee (14:27.793)
Oh yeah.

Eli Price (14:28.575)
all the theaters were showing the Dark Knight Rises at midnight. And so like you didn't even like have tickets to a certain like theater. It was just like you have a ticket and you go find one of the theaters. Uh, and it was, I remember like going to the bathroom and like, like washing my hands next to like people dressed up, like the Joker and stuff. Like it's like, but yeah. And, uh, so I have like a very distinct memory of that, uh, that time. The second summer was actually, um,

Zachary Lee (14:36.59)
It's just. It is.

Zachary Lee (14:48.909)
Right, right.

Zachary Lee (14:55.159)
Yeah.

Eli Price (14:58.907)
I think Deathly Hallows Part 2, like the last Harry Potter, was the year after that. And that's the one we saw for that. So I have like those memories of going with my, you know, camp staff friends. So that was really fun. But yeah, it also like had, we went on like the midnight premiere. And so, you know, you kind of like start hearing later about all the like...

Zachary Lee (15:01.878)
Yeah, that's right.

Zachary Lee (15:16.439)
Yeah.

Eli Price (15:27.135)
stuff with the shooting and whatnot. Yeah. Um, so that it's kind of like surreal, surreal to think back on that kind of like, that kind of like changed movie going for a while in a way. Like, I feel like people were kind of, you know, iffy about movie going and that sort of thing. Um, but yeah, really unfortunate. We actually had

Zachary Lee (15:28.431)
Exactly, I was about to ask.

Zachary Lee (15:43.118)
hopefully.

Zachary Lee (15:51.414)
Yeah. For a bit. Yeah.

Eli Price (15:56.223)
a theater shooting here in Lafayette, Louisiana, where I live, back in like 2015, or I want to say. And I was actually like, at a Bible study with some friends in the apartments that are right next to the theater. And so me and my friend that was the pastor of the church, we kind of like walked over there.

Zachary Lee (15:59.211)
Oh, snow.

Zachary Lee (16:04.641)
Mm-hmm.

Zachary Lee (16:13.435)
Oh snap.

Eli Price (16:25.299)
And we're like, you know, praying with people and stuff. And, uh, so like, I, I don't know. It's just kind of like that. Those, those like are connected in my mind, but yeah, it's just like really like.

Zachary Lee (16:36.018)
Oh wow, yeah.

Eli Price (16:39.639)
Um, yeah, just really like unfortunate that took place and that that's connected to such a really like amazing, fun, cool, you know, trilogy that Christopher Nolan made, um, uh, and it's w which we'll get to it, but still somehow this movie made a lot of money. And despite that,

Zachary Lee (16:51.739)
Yeah.

Right. Yeah.

Zachary Lee (17:04.222)
Yeah, yeah, it was interesting because I remember the, I mean, but yeah, before the shootings happened, a lot of the debate, I mean, I know, like DC Marvel fandom is like still, you know, they'll fight about things. But I know, you know, Avengers had come out the year before and then, you know, which was like the culmination of, you know, the first phase of the MCU at the time, which is crazy to think about now, right. But and then, you know, Dark Knight Rise.

Eli Price (17:19.917)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (17:23.375)
Yeah.

Eli Price (17:31.243)
Yeah, actually the same year. It was the same year. Yeah.

Zachary Lee (17:33.65)
Oh, the same year. Oh, well then in that case, it was the same year. I keep in my mind, I was just like, there's so, but that makes more sense. It was the same, right, it's 2012. I keep thinking Dark Knight Rises is 2013. That would have been Iron Man 3, but no, you're right. You're so right. Dark Knight Rises and Avengers is both in 2012. So I remember, yeah, the question being like, which movie is gonna out gross the other, you know? And it's like, it's this, you know, like.

Eli Price (17:43.355)
2012, yeah.

Eli Price (17:58.287)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (18:00.746)
You know, before the Oppenheimer or Barbenheimer thing, I'm sure it was just like, oh, we're getting like two huge, DC, you know, movies from the biggest comic book, you know, brands at the same time. So I remember that being a huge discussion. And then, and then once the shootings happened in Aurora, it would, you know, the conversation shifted of course, but yeah, I like remember that, that too, so.

Eli Price (18:03.659)
Yeah.

Eli Price (18:14.804)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (18:20.403)
Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah. Did you happen to look up which movie you ended up making more? I don't even remember. I think you're right.

Zachary Lee (18:29.498)
I think it was Avengers. Yeah, I think if I'm yeah, because I think and you know, partly in that being like, yeah, that's right. I'm looking here. Yeah, it's looking like I mean, just from a quick Wikipedia, it's like 1.5 billion for the Avengers. And then, you know, one billion for Dark Knight Rises, which is still pretty, you know, that's the highest of Nolan's career so far. And, you know, I think of all the Batman films, too, it's the highest.

Eli Price (18:35.147)
I think it outgrows Dark Knight.

Eli Price (18:44.524)
Yeah.

Eli Price (18:48.428)
Right. Yeah.

Eli Price (18:55.575)
Yeah, Dark Knight did break one billion also. But I think Dark Knight Rises did surpass it by a little bit. But yeah.

Zachary Lee (18:59.695)
Okay, great.

Yeah. Although I'm seeing these Oppenheimer numbers and I'm like, oh no, I mean, maybe, you know, the luncheon they cook.

Eli Price (19:09.623)
Yeah, it stayed in theaters for a long time here. But it finally like when the creator came out, it finally dropped out of the theaters here this past weekend. It was still in theaters. Yeah. Which we don't have an IMAX. We have like the, it's like GPX or whatever. It's kind of like, you know, the poor man's IMAX theaters.

Zachary Lee (19:19.538)
Yeah. This past weekend. Oh yeah. Those IMAX screens, you know, or other things.

Zachary Lee (19:33.151)
Yeah.

Eli Price (19:40.247)
Yeah. But, uh, yeah, it's, um, the, the kind of history with dark night rises is, is a little, I guess it's a little less involved from my research than, um, then what went into Batman begins in, in dark night, then the dark night. Um, but, uh, one of the things that, um, that I, that I do know is that like Nolan was always like,

little bit reluctant to make another one. It was kind of like this thing where he made Batman Begins and then he was like okay you know I'm you know I'm probably good and then they wanted him to do one more and he was like it didn't take much convincing but a little bit he was like okay I'll do I want to do the Joker that'll be that'll be fun and then this one took like more convincing to bring him back to do it sort of thing.

Zachary Lee (20:09.122)
Hmm.

Zachary Lee (20:25.979)
Yeah.

Eli Price (20:36.303)
But yeah, which is kind of like makes sense with his style, I guess, of like wanting to write original stuff. But yeah, it definitely, he did, one of the things he did with this trilogy that I thought was like, just really like smart and made it probably even better than it maybe should have been.

is like, if the studio had more like say, um, it's like he took those breaks in between. So like he would have like four years in between these movies really. Um, cause he would make another movie in between he did, you know, the prestige in between the first two and then inception between, uh, dark night and this, um, it really is.

Zachary Lee (21:30.422)
Yeah, which is crazy to think about, you know, it's like, Oh, yeah, just as like in between, I'm going to just drop two bangers in a row. And I'm like, that's, I like your, your sir, I always forget he released inception before Dark Knight Rises. It's like it was that. Yeah, that's so funny. Yeah. So cool.

Eli Price (21:37.38)
Yeah.

Eli Price (21:43.555)
He did. It's crazy. And it's like just as big of a movie, I feel like. Like it kind of like, it really like, so, you know, one of the things with this movie was like, he kind of was like, you know, it's gotta be bigger. We made the Dark Knight like bigger than Batman Begins. And you know, it.

Zachary Lee (21:51.916)
Totally.

Zachary Lee (22:05.185)
Mm.

Eli Price (22:09.783)
it won't make sense to go backwards. So we have to like make this one even bigger. Um, but really like inception was like, uh, it didn't, it wasn't, I don't, I wouldn't say it's bigger than inception. It's kind of like, he actually made the step up as far as like a big, huge, wide ranging movie with inception before getting to this one. So I wouldn't say inception is like, was like the trial run though, for this. Um, uh,

Zachary Lee (22:29.421)
Totally.

Zachary Lee (22:39.258)
Yeah, totally different thing. Yeah, you know, but I love what you were sharing too, because I was in some of the notes that I was looking at too, like he, that, you know, Rick House, the Trinsevid, I think I remember him saying, like, you know, how many good third movies in a franchise can people name, right? Which I was like, so even his own cognizance and awareness of like, are we just doing this because we have to, you know, and like.

Eli Price (22:39.355)
because it's a totally different thing, but yeah.

Eli Price (23:06.521)
Right.

Zachary Lee (23:06.55)
that desire to really invest in a story. And in another article I was reading, he said that, I think that the headline, right, was like, the Dark Knight, you know, Chris Nolan says the Dark Knight trilogy couldn't be made in this time, but to be made in this day and age. And looking at his comments, it wasn't like even a pretentious tone in the way that was phrased. It was really just like, you know, we had the luxury and privilege to

Eli Price (23:29.932)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (23:35.734)
really let things marinate and develop. And I had this line that I love where he said, we had the privilege and advantage to develop as people and as storytellers, and then bring the family back together. And I never thought about like for him as like a filmmaker or his crew, producers, the cast even, allowing themselves to just grow as people first, and the projects that they did. And then they're bringing in a way the best version

Eli Price (23:44.643)
Hmm. Yeah.

Eli Price (24:00.053)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (24:04.91)
themselves have more fully formed instead of if they just like, all right, we're going to jump right into production on this after we wrap up the next one. So yeah, that slow cooker type of mentality is really good. So you really see that.

Eli Price (24:12.14)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (24:20.107)
Yeah. And we even talked on last week's episode on Inception. He kind of had this moment where he took a break and like a vacation with his family after they finished the dark night. And, um, he kind of had this moment where like, he finally made, cause he had been kind of like dabbling in the inception script for years. And, uh, he had this moment where he finally like was able to figure out. Like the emotional.

Zachary Lee (24:40.47)
Yeah.

Eli Price (24:49.083)
kind of center of the movie. And he kind of talks about how like, he just, he wasn't ready to make that movie yet until that point, kind of in his just growth as a person. So yeah, that, and then like what you were saying about this movie, like, and really just like the trilogy in general of like having the, I guess like,

Zachary Lee (25:04.332)
Mm, yeah.

Eli Price (25:17.987)
both like integrity and like, I don't know, just wherewithal to think through like, oh, we need to make sure we're not just making something without purpose, but make sure we're, which that's something that he is very like, he thinks through from what I've gained in my research is like, he always wants to make sure there's like a purpose behind something. So he's like, even when he's like working in cliches,

Zachary Lee (25:30.402)
Yeah.

Eli Price (25:47.011)
He wants to make sure there's a purpose behind, whether it's a technique or a plot structure or that sort of thing. Yeah, so he wrote this with Goyer, David Goyer, who he wrote the first two with. And then Jonathan Nolan came on for this one. I'm pretty sure he was on for Dark Knight too, if I'm not mistaken.

Zachary Lee (25:49.708)
Yeah.

Eli Price (26:15.551)
I don't remember looking at that, but yeah, they started kind of... Yeah. Yeah, yeah, cool. Yeah, so I kind of read how they started exploring what they might do with the finale in 2008. I guess kind of as they were rapping on The Dark Knight, they started kind of like... I think I read that they kind of just had like...

Zachary Lee (26:20.65)
Yeah, he did write the screenplay a bit.

Eli Price (26:44.367)
bullet point ideas written down on index cards sort of thing. And, uh, and then I'm pretty sure it was one of those things where he kind of like him and Goyer kind of came up with the main thrust of the story. And then he kind of like threw it to Jonathan to start writing the script because obviously he's like, I'm jumping in headfirst into inception. So, um, I can't really work hard on this script, which is a similar thing.

Zachary Lee (26:46.124)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (27:07.98)
Right.

Zachary Lee (27:11.246)
Right.

Eli Price (27:13.271)
that he did with the prestige. He really wanted to make the prestige, but then he got the Batman Begins gig. And so he kind of entrusted it to Jonathan to start writing on that movie. But yeah, I really think, I think Jonathan Nolan brings like a good insight into the writing.

Zachary Lee (27:16.101)
Ah, okay.

Eli Price (27:42.255)
It seems like in general, I wouldn't say it's like necessarily better than when Nolan is writing on his own, but it just brings something different to the table. Um, they kind of like, they have different ideas of what to, what to do. Um, like I know for this one in particular, Jonathan is the, is the one that kind of was like, Hey, you know, I really feel like this should be like an epic. Like.

Zachary Lee (27:50.996)
Mm-hmm.

Totally.

Zachary Lee (28:11.491)
Hmm.

Eli Price (28:12.091)
Um, like the Iliad, like some Homer, like Iliad or Odyssey, and he, he brought up like a tale of two cities, uh, and, um, was like, you know, I feel like this kind of idea of revolution we can draw from that, from, from that Dickens novel. Um, and so like, really that kind of like, was the thrust behind a lot of the atmosphere of the movie, I guess, not.

Zachary Lee (28:16.074)
Interesting. That's right.

Zachary Lee (28:26.589)
Yeah, yeah.

Zachary Lee (28:39.288)
Mmm.

Eli Price (28:40.375)
necessarily the plot, but the atmosphere for sure was very much driven by that idea, which is something like Jonathan brought to the table. So yeah, just that idea of writing with someone and having your ideas come together, I think is really cool. It's a cool thing that happens that's, in a way, can be unique to certain art forms like film.

Zachary Lee (28:43.275)
Yeah, yeah.

Zachary Lee (28:50.67)
to the script.

Zachary Lee (29:10.838)
Yeah.

Eli Price (29:11.131)
Um, like, I guess music can be similar, like coming together with others to like write music, um, where you're, your different ideas may come together to like make something interesting and beautiful and film I feel like is very much, but to an even greater degree. Like that, you know, because you have so many different aspects of a movie that you have to like have people.

Zachary Lee (29:17.355)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (29:32.417)
Yeah.

Eli Price (29:38.595)
give input on and make and create. But yeah.

Zachary Lee (29:43.766)
No, that's interesting because I feel like I know, and maybe we'll get into this in the production side of things as well, but I know that, I think news came out recently, or maybe this was also shared in the past, but how the studio really wanted Riddler as the villain, and specifically Leonardo DiCaprio to play the Riddler. And so I thought that was interesting that, that was a trend of the time, to have these high profile actors.

Eli Price (29:51.451)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (30:01.816)
Yep.

Eli Price (30:05.452)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (30:13.414)
sign on as like this huge villain for like a one picture deal maybe or something like that. But I like how like you were saying in the collaboration process, like thinking about what Jonathan Nolan brought to like the revolution, you know, like the tale of two cities aspect, like it's hard to think about Riddler fitting into that. It makes more sense to have like a militaristic Bane type of antagonist that's there. So I loved how even for both Chris and

Eli Price (30:18.68)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (30:33.036)
Yeah.

Eli Price (30:36.325)
Mm-hmm.

Zachary Lee (30:43.19)
we want to prioritize the story. And if the story is leading us this way, that'll dictate who the antagonist is, right? As opposed to like, we want X, Y, Z. I mean, I'm sure what Nolan would have done with Riddler would have been great. I'm sure it would have been, you know, would have been cool. But like, I like how it made, he was thinking about it from a character. And like you said, story perspective first and foremost. And the fact that he and his brother were on the same page to bring them forward makes a lot of sense.

Eli Price (30:49.752)
Yeah.

Eli Price (30:56.686)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (31:05.006)
Right.

Eli Price (31:10.315)
Yeah, yeah, and he kind of talked about how Riddler was too similar to Joker. I mean, they have their own nuances, but the way that it would work story-wise would be kind of too much in the same vein. And yeah, he did have kind of creative debates with WB over that, for sure. But as we know...

Zachary Lee (31:17.474)
Mm, yeah. Joker.

Zachary Lee (31:35.122)
That's right. Yeah.

Eli Price (31:39.779)
Um, from the get-go, he kind of like was able to have his way with what he wanted to do with these, which is impressive in its own right. But, um, but yeah, I think, um, I think it was Goyer. Well, obviously. So, you know, probably should mention, you know, Joe Heath Ledger, um, before, you know, he passed, um, had actually like expressed interest in, in coming back on, um, to the project and, um,

Zachary Lee (31:45.742)
Totally. Oh yeah.

Zachary Lee (32:02.443)
Right.

Zachary Lee (32:05.783)
Yeah.

Eli Price (32:09.527)
you know, that unfortunately, you know, it wasn't able to happen. And, you know, Nolan was smart to kind of leave that as Ledger's legacy, um, as the Joker. Um, cause I think there was some talk when this was coming out, it was like, Oh, is he going to use some archive footage and stuff like that? Um, and I think it was the probably the best decision to kind of like, just let that be a legacy and leave it be. Um,

Zachary Lee (32:27.339)
Yeah, that's right.

Zachary Lee (32:36.941)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (32:38.851)
But yeah, I think it was Goyer that suggested Bane. And Nolan at first was kind of like, I don't know. Because there was a Bane in Batman and Robin, the Joel Schumacher. And it was played by Jeep Swinson, who was a pro wrestler. And it was just kind of like an even dumber version of the Hulk, like Bane Smash kind of thing.

Zachary Lee (32:43.426)
Nice.

Zachary Lee (32:48.344)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (32:54.615)
That's right.

Zachary Lee (33:06.102)
No. Alright, alright.

Eli Price (33:09.843)
and so like no one was like I don't know about this bang guy and Goyer, you know, he's a comic book guy. And so he was like no, trust me like he's like that's a bad version of Bane and Which Bane at that point, I think I read he was introduced in like 1993 So he really like wasn't that seasoned of a Batman villain

Zachary Lee (33:13.515)
Alright.

Zachary Lee (33:22.6)
Yeah, right.

Eli Price (33:38.967)
And and one of the things that Nolan wanted for this character was like a physical match for Batman. And so Goyer brought Bane to the table and they kind of like, I'm sure he kind of like showed Nolan some like work of him in the comics. And Nolan was kind of like, yeah, OK, I can see it now sort of thing. But yeah, they were they were I feel like they were really able to use him as that like.

Zachary Lee (33:46.559)
Yeah.

Eli Price (34:06.863)
physical match for Batman and kind of like his mirror image of like, because both coming out of the League of Shadows and that sort of thing. And then too, like you were saying, like that militaristic kind of villain that you need, he was perfect for and like even like the theatrics of the way he operates fits that like Homer epic kind of.

Zachary Lee (34:15.671)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (34:26.806)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (34:30.541)
Mm-hmm.

Zachary Lee (34:35.373)
Totally.

Eli Price (34:35.839)
style that they were going for. I had read somewhere that Joker was Gotham's id, in psychological terms id is like the force of nature kind of part of who we are, instinct. And it said if Joker is Gotham's id then Bane is Gotham's superego, which the superego I think is like...

Zachary Lee (35:01.993)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (35:05.483)
supposed to be the thing that kind of brings you shame and guilt. And so that's kind of like how, how like Bane is operating. He's like, like bringing like military style shame and guilt upon Gotham, like making them reckon. I think he even says like something about being a reckoning for Gotham. Um, which is, that's what that means is like he's, he's showing them.

Zachary Lee (35:09.792)
Interesting.

Zachary Lee (35:14.781)
Totally.

Zachary Lee (35:21.02)
Oh yeah.

Zachary Lee (35:27.073)
Right.

Eli Price (35:33.711)
their flaws, like he's showing them the depths of who they are. So I thought that was a cool way to think about it, psychological terms.

Zachary Lee (35:35.005)
Exactly.

Zachary Lee (35:39.234)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (35:42.798)
Totally. That scene where I wish I know we'll get into later when we're kind of making, going through plot points, but just that scene when he's reading Commissioner Gordon's letter, like still gets me every time. It's like, there's just something it's like, don't read air, the dirty laundry man, you know? Like Gordon was gonna do it. Like it's about not awakening things before their time, you know, and it's just like him, like they're very much like, look at the underbelly we're just exposing.

Eli Price (35:53.655)
Yeah.

Eli Price (36:05.497)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (36:11.938)
That's a great way to think about it. I never considered the philosophical lens to the antagonists of the franchise, so of the trilogy, so yeah.

Eli Price (36:13.659)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (36:19.152)
Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, I hadn't thought about it in those terms until I read that. I think that was in, I have like the Christopher Nolan iconic filmmakers series on him. And it was in there, which I don't know if he might've sourced it from somewhere else. A lot of the stuff that he uses comes from another book I'm reading called The Nolan Variations by Tom Schoen. And it's a like very expansive, like I can...

Zachary Lee (36:45.23)
interesting. I hope you know that.

Eli Price (36:50.871)
hold up to the camera like it's a thick like pretty thick book like but uh yeah and it like by the way reads very well it's not like reading just like information it's like very well written and like and like thoughtful a very like thoughtful read but um yeah so like we were saying before you know he kind

Zachary Lee (36:52.896)
Oh, there you go.

Zachary Lee (37:06.315)
notes.

Eli Price (37:20.619)
It has to be bigger and like the budget was bigger. The runtime was bigger. The like amount of villains was more. The stunts were bigger. The vehicles were bigger. Like everything, like the plot itself was bigger. Um, everything was bigger about this movie. Um, and I, I love this quote that I saw from Nolan. He said, when you take on these icons, you are allowed to indulge in this grand scale storytelling.

Zachary Lee (37:24.77)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (37:29.794)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Everything.

Eli Price (37:49.955)
that you can't in other genres. I just liked that idea of like, I'm taking this like iconography in like this superhero and like, since I'm doing that, he's such a big figure, I can make this like grand story out of him. Sort of in the way that like the Greeks and Romans made those grand stories about like their icons.

Zachary Lee (38:03.127)
Mm-hmm.

Zachary Lee (38:09.695)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (38:18.328)
Yeah.

Eli Price (38:20.435)
you know, you because it's such an iconic figure, the scale of story can just be so much more expansive. And I guess like part of that is just because of people's familiarity with the character, you can kind of like make things bigger than you can with other genres, maybe.

Zachary Lee (38:31.033)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (38:41.91)
Yeah. No, and it's interesting to think, because I love that point, because it felt, I mean, and I'm trying to, I don't know if maybe you remember this more, just because I know you were singing it at midnight as well when the screenings, but I feel like it's interesting to look at so much of the structure of the film and how there's this crescendo and rising of like, when's Batman gonna show up? And there's this void. And I even, that scene with the two police officers were like the younger ones, like,

just uptight, confused about what's going on. The older one's just like, the older one being like an audience surrogate of like, oh, we're in for like a treat, you know? And like the way Nolan is building to that, Batman's entrance is great. And it's funny because listening to the Batman Begins podcast episode you did, I like checked the time. And I think it's about like almost at the 50 minute mark when Batman shows up again, and you know, like it adds the costume character.

Eli Price (39:21.1)
Yeah.

Eli Price (39:38.042)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Zachary Lee (39:41.746)
in The Dark Knight Rises. And it made me think about how like, in that first one, it's like almost an hour, right? By the time Batman himself shows up again. So it was a cool parallel and callback. I don't know how intentional maybe the timing was, but that, just such a great way of growing with the audience. Like I know for me being like, oh, I'm so hyped to see Batman on screen again and building these larger than life mythos.

Eli Price (39:47.864)
Yeah.

Eli Price (39:56.609)
Yeah.

Eli Price (40:05.339)
Mm-hmm.

Zachary Lee (40:10.178)
you know, these icons and symbols that are there. So I feel like even in like the way the character was shown, like that was super evident and the care that was there too, which was really fun. But yeah.

Eli Price (40:20.875)
Yeah, yeah, it's, um, it, I feel like it probably does, like, it may be not intentional in the exact, like, moment in the runtime, maybe, but like, probably definitely mirroring Batman Begins in that, like, we're not going to have him in the suit and cowl for a while, sort of thing. Just that idea of him dealing with himself, like, in his own, like,

Zachary Lee (40:32.354)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Zachary Lee (40:43.352)
right?

Zachary Lee (40:48.77)
Totally.

Eli Price (40:49.983)
issues before he dons the, you know, the Batman, the bat gear again. Um, yeah, I did. Um, I had some like influences written down. Um, the influences are always interesting for Nolan's movies because he, he has like a few that are like staples, which I didn't see Blade Runner brought up with this one, but a lot of his movies, he brings up Blade

Zachary Lee (41:03.597)
Yeah.

Eli Price (41:20.407)
Uh, it didn't, didn't come up here, but he always, even though he has those few that are like his generic, like this movie influences all of my movies, he has like, there always seems to be like some unique influences like that he has for each film, uh, like this one, uh, we already mentioned, like, um, the, the kind of literary, um, and Dickens tell it to cities, you know, with like kind of

Zachary Lee (41:45.77)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Eli Price (41:49.103)
transplanting the French Revolution into Gotham sort of thing. And, um, and even like my, my wife actually just read a tale of two cities. Um, I've never read it. Um, she like literally finished a tale of two cities a few days before I rewatched this movie for the episode and then like was reading and I was like, Hey, did you know that dark knight rises was like. Influence some by tell two cities. And so I was like bouncing stuff off of her to figure out like what exactly.

Zachary Lee (42:06.562)
Oh wow, that's great.

Zachary Lee (42:17.791)
Oh, that's so funny.

Eli Price (42:19.283)
influenced it and there actually are some like plot point stuff that is sort of like it's like definitely influence and not adaptation. Like if that's like a spectrum it's definitely way towards the influence side than the adaptation side. But yeah like just as far as like some of the character relationships and the

Zachary Lee (42:31.406)
Totally.

Eli Price (42:48.515)
you have like the, the ending seemed like from what I, what she was telling me seems like it was kind of like had some tele-to-cities influence with like a person that was supposed to be gone, you know, kind of finding their place somewhere else. And someone that knew them from their other life, like seeing them in another place sort of thing. And then he, yeah, go ahead.

Zachary Lee (42:59.895)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (43:05.928)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (43:10.374)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or like even that idea. Oh, just even that idea of like, I think at the end of Tale of Two Cities, like the character swaps places with another person. So there's this like idea of like Batman has died, right? Bruce Wayne, you know, it's just some extent, I'm assuming Bruce, yeah, Bruce Wayne, in terms of like how Gotham and the world is seeing him, but then he's showing up later.

Eli Price (43:25.676)
Yeah.

Eli Price (43:30.17)
Mm-hmm.

Zachary Lee (43:39.658)
you know, like different person, you know, able to like step into like a re the rebirth and live a different life based off the sacrificing of his old self, you know, so it was like, oh, yeah, like, I can see how some of that tracks and checks out.

Eli Price (43:54.411)
Yeah. Um, yeah. And even like Gordon quotes, um, a tale of two cities at the funeral for Bruce. Um, uh, which, um, I can't remember how the quote goes. It's, um, but yeah, it's when I, when I heard him reading it with the thought of like this being influenced by a tale of two cities in the back of my mind, he was like reading that quote and I was like, I bet that's from a tale of two cities. It sounds like Dickens.

Zachary Lee (43:59.52)
Totally.

Zachary Lee (44:22.583)
That's it.

Eli Price (44:24.491)
And I looked it up and I was like, yep, it was.

Zachary Lee (44:26.678)
Right, I know. They should have just opened with, it was the best of times, it was the worst of times, you know, at the start of the movie, just to really nail that home, you know, just to like, this is based inspired. Yeah, no, honestly, now that you think about it with like, the his speech and, you know, the plane takeover, yeah, that's like, that's a good point, without directly saying it.

Eli Price (44:32.247)
Yeah.

Eli Price (44:36.659)
Yeah, in a sense they did.

Eli Price (44:47.692)
Yeah. Cause it's like every, like all the stuff is cleaned up, but like, so it's like the best of times, but also like, there's this underbelly of like, of like, you know, the poor that are like being like subjugated and like under the dent act, like the prosperous are becoming more prosperous and the poor becoming more poor and, um, so like, it's like,

Zachary Lee (44:55.192)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (45:09.89)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (45:13.679)
the best of times because there's less crime, but also the worst of times because you know, the, the social gaps are becoming wider and, and I, and it's built on a lie and all that stuff. Um, so yeah, I hadn't really thought about that until you said that. Uh, but it really kind of.

Zachary Lee (45:16.106)
Yeah, the worst of time.

Zachary Lee (45:21.314)
That's right.

Zachary Lee (45:25.494)
Mm-hmm. There we go.

Yeah, no, just you seeing the lines. I was like, Oh, yeah, that checks out this

Eli Price (45:35.835)
Yeah. The other like literary was, I've never read any of these works, but like, it's kind of like pulp, the old like pulp writings, like pulp mysteries and stuff of James M. Cain and Dachael Hammett. So maybe there's someone out there listening that knows those writers.

I did not, I had to look them up. I didn't really recognize any of their work, but they were like pulp writers writing like, you know, mysteries and that sort of thing. And I think it's just like kind of like the air and atmosphere of their writing was sort of like influential. Some of the like movie influences, of course you have like,

Zachary Lee (46:01.837)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (46:14.07)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (46:26.76)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (46:28.235)
He had, he likes to throw a little bit of bond in all of his movies. He's a big bond fan, which I, I saw recently that he's, there's a rumor that he's like in works to direct two bond films. Um, I don't know how much truth there is to that, but

Zachary Lee (46:31.082)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Zachary Lee (46:41.502)
Yeah, I think that, yeah, it's interesting because I think the contention, because I saw that too, is like, he wants to make them period pieces, but then the studio or whoever wants them to, yeah, the studio wants it modern. I'm like, sounds about right. I'm like, I could see Nolan being like, we gotta go to the past, man. And then they're like, no, we wanted modern. So it sounds like it could be true, but who knows? But that'll be interesting, yeah.

Eli Price (46:51.371)
Yeah, like 50s. Yeah.

Eli Price (47:01.697)
Yeah.

Ha ha ha.

Eli Price (47:07.967)
Yeah. It's, um, it's one of those, I, I would, I would bet that like, if they really like, or wanting to go in a different direction than he wants to go, if the rumors are true, then I would think he probably would just be like, ah, I'm good. I, you know, I would want to do it my way. And if you're not going to let me, then I'm good. You know, see ya. Um, I do know he like, he,

Zachary Lee (47:25.366)
Right. Yeah, exactly. Exactly, yeah.

Eli Price (47:35.343)
Hearted Ways with Warner Brothers, I can't remember what movie that was. It was a more recent one, and maybe like for Tenet was maybe his first one outside of Warner Brothers.

Zachary Lee (47:39.979)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (47:43.726)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (47:46.982)
I think actually it was, he was disappointed with how Warner Bros. handled Tenet's release and just the HBO Max stuff in general. So I think that's when with Oppenheimer, he's like, we're jumping to Universal. But Tenet was like the, the break, you know, like the way that was handled, I'm sure did not, yeah, it was not.

Eli Price (47:52.375)
Yeah.

Eli Price (47:58.843)
That's true. Yeah, now that you say that, I'm, yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Some of the like film and other film influences, like, uh, you know, I mentioned bond, he has a little bit of that, the opening sequence is like very bond, I feel like, and then like the kind of like race against the clock ending is very like bond feeling. Um, but he also, uh, he mentioned Dr. Chavago, um, which I've never seen. Um, but it has like, is this like.

Zachary Lee (48:20.027)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (48:37.991)
idea of Moscow transformed by revolution and you have like empty streets and crowded interiors and this like cold Russian winter and so you can kind of see how like once the Bane Gotham gets set in place like you can kind of see that influence probably there. If you have seen Dr.

Zachary Lee (49:03.178)
Yeah, I know. I haven't heard of that till now. So that's new to me. I'll add it to the watchlist.

Eli Price (49:05.271)
Yeah. And then, um, yeah, they, he talked about like disaster films. Like the one he mentioned was the towering inferno. Another, I haven't seen. Um, uh, you have like the, the battle of Algiers, which is, uh, kind of a docu drama about, um, the Algierian people kind of like uprising against the, the French, um, you know, the French occupiers. Um,

Zachary Lee (49:20.238)
Mm-mm.

Eli Price (49:34.775)
And so like, like there's probably a lot of like the idea of like revolution that's influenced like that influences in this movie, which all of these movies I haven't that I've mentioned so far, I haven't seen. And so I can only like speak so much into how much they influenced it. But, um, the battle of all these years is probably the one that I, I feel like I should see the most out of those. Um, it's, it's supposed to be like a phenomenal film. Um,

Zachary Lee (49:59.35)
Yeah.

Eli Price (50:04.311)
And then Fritz Lang's Metropolis, which I think I mentioned probably in Batman Begins. But yeah, not only like so in Batman Begins, probably mostly talked about like the look. So that idea of like architecture and theme going together is very much in Metropolis, which I actually watched probably like just a few months ago for the first time. It is really a phenomenal movie.

Zachary Lee (50:08.671)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (50:23.284)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (50:34.199)
if you've never seen it. Yeah.

Zachary Lee (50:35.625)
Nice. Yeah, I've heard really good things about it. And I know like the score is great, you know, and everything. So it's on my list.

Eli Price (50:43.359)
Yeah, but then also like this one even has even think more influence than Batman Begins because it's that idea like one of the big things in Metropolis is that like this the social status of the people is like made literal So you have like the rich people like in these really high buildings Up like they're you know looking out over the city out of their like windows and then like the poor people are literally like

Zachary Lee (51:00.263)
Mmm.

Eli Price (51:11.535)
slaves beneath the city. And so like that idea is definitely like influential here with you know, you have the poor people ending up like in the sewers working for Bane. And you know, you have the rich people kind of like up in their, you know, towers in Gotham sort of thing. So yeah, that's really that was something like when I read that I was like

Zachary Lee (51:13.781)
Mmm.

Eli Price (51:40.731)
Oh, that is absolutely an influence. Like I should have thought about that when I was watching this. Um, it never occurred to me until I, I read it. Um, yeah, it's the other really like other influences you have, like, um, the nightfall comic, which is where Bane breaks Batman's back in the comics. So there's definitely that influence there, which I've never read.

Zachary Lee (52:03.631)
Yep.

That's right.

Eli Price (52:10.455)
That story it's always like I'll be like at a bookstore or something and I'll see it and I'll be like man. That looks good I need to read that I just haven't It's a long one it's one of the longer story arcs

Zachary Lee (52:18.763)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (52:22.258)
I, is that the one too where like Azrael or someone, like when someone steps in to like take over as Batman, I think for a bit, you know, while Batman's healing? Yeah, but I know what you're talking about. That like iconic, that like comic book shot where he's like, you know, breaking Batman's back.

Eli Price (52:32.655)
That sounds right maybe? I'm not sure.

Eli Price (52:40.548)
Uh huh.

Yeah. And he mentioned to Kurtz in Apocalypse Now, that kind of the Marlon Brando character in Apocalypse Now is like he has this very like, I don't know that I can kind of see the influence there but also like Kurtz is a very like iconic figure in his own right. He's like very menacing

Zachary Lee (53:09.037)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (53:13.199)
than Bane because a lot of it is in his face and his facial expressions, which you don't get with Bane. So the vocalization though, he had like Brando is going with a very like particular vocalization. And so like maybe that idea of like, you're the way you're choosing to like use your voice maybe can be influenced in the way that you're menacing, maybe. I don't know.

Zachary Lee (53:14.37)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (53:18.626)
with me.

Eli Price (53:42.107)
The only other thing that I had in the notes was just Howard Hughes. So Nolan like popularly has like a Howard Hughes script, uh, in a drawer somewhere that he wasn't ever able to do, or at least not yet because the aviator came out right when he was like working on this script. Um, and so, but yeah, the, the kind of idea of Bruce, um, kind of being like broken down in a recluse kind of like.

Zachary Lee (53:59.454)
Oh, yes.

Eli Price (54:10.871)
You can see the Howard Hughes later in his life influence there. Yeah, so you can probably see some of Hughes and a lot of Nolan's stuff just because he has the script he wrote that he's like, well, maybe I'll use bits and pieces here and there of this character.

Zachary Lee (54:15.91)
Yeah, that's right. That's so interesting.

Zachary Lee (54:30.47)
Right. Yeah. No, I that makes a lot of sense. I was just kind of doing a quick like Wikipedia search at it. That makes on the AP8R page and that yeah, that's really interesting. And I know that yeah.

Eli Price (54:39.967)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's funny. I'm just thinking about like that sometimes like Even guys like Chris Nolan are like man I really wanted to make that movie and I got to it first You like used my idea first and like how relatable is that like I had this great idea, but someone's already done it

Zachary Lee (54:54.576)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (54:59.81)
I know, right? I'm like, I feel like they should make a group chat. You know what I mean? Like of some of these directors, they should be like, hey Marty, like, just so you know, I called dibs on this, you know, don't do this next time. But yeah. Influences too, it was interesting because I was reading like, I know, and this is where you did tie it back to what you're saying about what Jonathan brought to you. I don't know if this was Jonathan's direct influence, but I know like other comics or like, or stories where like the no man's land.

Eli Price (55:04.794)
Yeah.

Eli Price (55:13.422)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (55:28.878)
comics or Dark Knight Returns, specifically that one where, you know, Batman comes back to Gotham after being away for a long time. So it's neat to like, there are the comic book influences and also like the real life, like the Hughes story and those like had interesting marriage when it came to like depicting the characters and stuff.

Eli Price (55:29.819)
Hmm.

Eli Price (55:35.615)
Right. Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (55:49.087)
Mm-hmm. Yeah and Dark Knight Rises, I mean Dark Knight Returns is a very like...

It's an icon of a story in and of itself, sort of a really good one. Um, if you're listening and you've never like read that, or there's also the, the animated adaptation of it. Um, that's really, it's pretty much like frame for frame from the comic, just animated, um, which, uh,

Zachary Lee (56:02.251)
Mm-mm.

Zachary Lee (56:11.702)
That's right. Also good.

Zachary Lee (56:19.146)
I was going to ask, because I'd seen the films and loved the animated ones, but I haven't read the comic yet, so I was wondering how close it was to the comic.

Eli Price (56:22.296)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (56:25.727)
Yeah. Yeah, they're, they're usually actually the, the DC, like, I guess DC studios or whoever, like kind of produces all those animated, uh, adaptations of the, those story arcs. They're, they're usually like really pretty close to, to the storyline. Like the only one that I remember recently watching, well, I say recently, I watched it years ago was the killing joke, the

Zachary Lee (56:44.075)
Mm-hmm.

Zachary Lee (56:54.326)
Yeah.

Eli Price (56:55.491)
The story itself is actually pretty bare bones. There's not a whole lot to it. And they added a bunch of stuff to that to make it fuller. And in my opinion, it doesn't really work well. But yeah, they're usually pretty spot on between the animated movie version and the comic version, at least from my experience.

Zachary Lee (57:02.859)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (57:15.576)
Yeah.

Eli Price (57:23.767)
Like even like the long Halloween as expansive as that like story is in the comics, like the, well, they did, you know, the part one and part two of it for the movie. And yeah, it's pretty close to the actual story. But yeah, I do love Dark Knight Returns. It's a great like story arc for sure. Yeah.

Zachary Lee (57:26.638)
That's right.

Zachary Lee (57:41.654)
Yeah, that's great.

Zachary Lee (57:49.678)
story arc there. So good.

Eli Price (57:53.347)
You almost wish like there was more.

like I don't know like you could see it being interesting to take like a Batman Beyond approach a little bit but we didn't really get that I guess it that's a little bit more a little bit like out of the realism that Christopher Nolan is going for having like the kind of Robin stand in just be like a cop but uh but yeah the kid that you know

Zachary Lee (58:06.183)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (58:17.688)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (58:24.613)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (58:28.386)
That's right.

Eli Price (58:29.333)
finds the old decrepit Batman and gets him to train him.

Zachary Lee (58:31.822)
Yeah, that's right. Exactly. I know. Hey, maybe the DCU will try to adapt that in some way. Who knows? But yeah, that's what's fun though, is to see... I remember hearing the end where John Blake says, oh, his legal name's Robin or something. I don't know. It can feel kind of cheesy and tacky, but it's just fun. And I'm just like, I like that...

Eli Price (58:41.035)
Oh yeah. Yeah.

Eli Price (58:58.415)
Uh huh.

Zachary Lee (59:00.954)
He's finding ways to tip his hat to these stories and these comics. And like you said, on his terms, it would be, you know, like, it makes sense, like you said, for the Robin character to be a cop and, you know, it's just, it's not a kid, you know, it's different and it makes sense for the world that Nolan's created with these characters. So, yeah. But I just, I know for me that was fun. I don't know how people felt about that. I was like, that's...

Eli Price (59:04.536)
Yeah.

Eli Price (59:07.873)
Right.

Eli Price (59:18.712)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (59:27.383)
Yeah. It's probably definitely mixed. Uh, some mixed, uh, response there. I kind of see it as, um, it's like a rare instance of like, no one being playful with stuff like that. Um, and so I, I kind of like, when I watch it, I'm kind of like, oh, really, but then like, I also like, I'm kind of like, well, like he's having fun. Like it's like.

Zachary Lee (59:32.31)
Everybody's responses, yeah.

Zachary Lee (59:40.094)
Yeah, exactly.

Zachary Lee (59:48.163)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (59:52.502)
He's having fun.

Eli Price (59:53.571)
He doesn't do that a ton, that sort of thing. And so like, it's kind of like, ah, I guess he can have like a little bit of that cheesiness every once in a while.

Zachary Lee (01:00:02.07)
Yeah, right, yeah. And even, I don't know, like I felt that just without the, even talking about influences for the film, where I felt like if Dark Knight was this like gritty, grounded crime, you know, noir, those elements also present in Batman Begins, you talked about, I felt like with Rises, like, I don't know, just even having things like the entire police force is trapped underground, you know, or like.

Eli Price (01:00:30.409)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Zachary Lee (01:00:32.034)
the Brit, you know, the world, you know, the Gotham's cut off from the world. You know, Batman has this flying tank ship. I don't know, like those things felt very much like, yeah, it's realistic. You're kind of pushing it a little bit, but like I said, you're having fun. There's that like mythological, and you were saying the ego, the id, or the super ego id, like all those elements. So it felt like.

Eli Price (01:00:36.757)
Yeah.

Eli Price (01:00:41.401)
Yeah.

Eli Price (01:00:47.393)
Uh-huh.

Eli Price (01:00:54.723)
Mm-hmm.

Zachary Lee (01:00:58.878)
Nolan, I don't know if he was just like, you know what, this is the last one. Let's just, let's give the people some, some comic book goodness here that, you know, kind of propelled them to do that. Cause that did feel different, like as grounded as it still was. And you know, it's not like I felt like it was tonal whiplash or anything from the other two movies. This one just felt, there was just a fun aspect to it, you know, even as it was really serious. So I like the way it touched on it.

Eli Price (01:01:13.136)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (01:01:21.016)
Yeah.

Eli Price (01:01:24.599)
Yeah, and I think part of too, like the, you know, it's that expansiveness of it too, you know, like he's just kind of like, he's expanding it to the point that like it does start to feel more like a comic book movie just because it's so big. It's like, there's so much like going on and the personalities are so huge. Like when you think about like Bane's like,

Zachary Lee (01:01:42.146)
Yeah.

Eli Price (01:01:53.743)
persona and like Catwoman's persona and they just kind of have these big personalities that like are they're hard to like make more like the characters in Batman Begins where they're like much more like grounded and or even like Dark Knight maybe the Dark Knight even for more than Batman Begins like the characters are more like grounded in reality

Zachary Lee (01:01:54.939)
Exactly.

Zachary Lee (01:02:08.876)
Yeah.

Eli Price (01:02:20.571)
because I don't know how grounded in reality Ra's al Ghul is. But yeah, it's these characters that are more like grandiose and have that comic book flair. But too like, we can probably like get into like production a little bit. The obviously like huge budget, $250 million.

Zachary Lee (01:02:20.648)
Yeah.

Yeah, that's true. That is true, yeah.

Zachary Lee (01:02:37.098)
As you said.

Eli Price (01:02:49.803)
You know, if someone wants to give me $250 million to make a movie, I will happily like take that on in that I will find someone that can make a movie with that much money and like hire them and then like be along for the ride. That would be my approach. But yeah, you know, if you're listening and you have 250 million sitting around and want to invest it in a movie like

Zachary Lee (01:03:01.31)
There we go, exactly. Yep.

There we go.

Eli Price (01:03:16.567)
Let's like get with me and we'll find the right person for the job. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. But they, they obviously like shot for a long time, seven months. And then here's the, I guess the connection point to that expansiveness is the locations for this is just like, um, so obviously.

Zachary Lee (01:03:19.79)
Exactly. I know. Do it through the Patreon. We'll find creative ways to use it well.

Zachary Lee (01:03:40.567)
Yeah.

Eli Price (01:03:44.947)
you know, you have kind of like the exteriors of the pit sequences were shot in India. Which that I was trying to think when I read that I was like, man, there really wasn't a lot of shots of that. So it's almost like they were like, well, we have maybe we have some extra money. Let's fly a team to India and like use some of this budget. But yeah, they India is like the pit.

Zachary Lee (01:04:02.102)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (01:04:06.102)
There we go. Exactly.

Eli Price (01:04:13.795)
the exterior shots of the pit. And then you have the opener shot in Scotland, in Glasgow, outside of Glasgow. And I was watching some of the extras on the Blu-ray and they were just kind of talking about, just thinking about like what they wanted the landscape to be like for that shot. And they landed on Scotland, which was perfect. And then obviously like you have

Zachary Lee (01:04:15.298)
Yeah. Oh, that's right.

Zachary Lee (01:04:20.331)
Yep.

Eli Price (01:04:42.919)
he goes back to London and the cardington hangars and builds huge sets in there. And um but then like the one thing that like is so this is something that like I appreciate but also like have a little bit of like um I don't know if I want to say a problem with or like just like I don't know it's kind of like um

disorienting a bit for me is the amount of cities that Gotham takes on. Um, like, so you have, it's, it's like, it's basically for Gotham in this move. So Gotham in the dark night is, is Chicago. Like it's it. I mean, they're shooting on the streets of Chicago. Um, the, even the sets they build, they have to build or like Chicago. Um, it's like everything is basically.

Zachary Lee (01:05:17.162)
Yeah, yeah, I was noticing that.

Zachary Lee (01:05:26.924)
Right.

Eli Price (01:05:40.111)
grounded in one place in Chicago. And then you go to the Dark Knight Rises, there's not anything in Chicago. It's all like, it's a mixture of New Jersey, New York City, LA a little bit, and Pittsburgh, which actually most of it was like, I think there was a higher percentage shot in Pittsburgh than anywhere else. But yeah, it's so.

Zachary Lee (01:05:48.491)
Right.

Zachary Lee (01:05:56.882)
Yeah, it's free. That's right.

Zachary Lee (01:06:04.93)
Yeah.

Eli Price (01:06:08.835)
That to me was a little bit disorienting because especially, so Pittsburgh, I guess for me, isn't that noticeable. I wouldn't see a shot of a city and be like, oh, that's Pittsburgh. But New York City, absolutely, is that way. So when you're jumping from New York City to Pittsburgh to LA, it's kind of like, wait, where am I?

Zachary Lee (01:06:23.242)
This fits for. Right.

Zachary Lee (01:06:36.554)
Where, that's right. Yeah, that's interesting.

Eli Price (01:06:39.171)
Um, and I don't know, like, it just feels like, um,

Eli Price (01:06:46.391)
I'm sure, like I think maybe part of the reason for doing that is kind of like that idea that like Gotham is no city in all cities at the same time. It's like it's its own city, but also like represents all big cities, inner cities like that. That's kind of like the person personality of Gotham is just like, oh, I'm a big city, you know.

Zachary Lee (01:06:58.306)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (01:07:15.179)
Yeah.

Eli Price (01:07:15.307)
you think of the big city, that's what I am. And so maybe it's that idea that like, Gotham is just representative of all like major big cities. But I don't know, to me it's kind of like, it was kind of disorienting, especially on this watch. Maybe that's just me watching with a more critical eye than usual, but I don't know. Did you have any thoughts on that?

Zachary Lee (01:07:17.718)
That's what I, yeah, that's interesting.

Zachary Lee (01:07:39.026)
Yeah. No, it's a great point because I think it was interesting because I was like, I think even when I saw it, I was like, I thought in my mind, it's the same way I thought this movie came out in 2013. It was like, I was like, oh, for sure all three movies are filmed in Chicago. So I was like, waiting for like, where's the iconic Chicago skyline and this one, you know, where's the...

Eli Price (01:07:55.107)
Ha ha.

Eli Price (01:08:03.514)
Mm-hmm.

Zachary Lee (01:08:05.246)
and it didn't come and I was like, what the heck? And then I saw it, I'm like, oh no, none of this was in Chicago. I'm like, Transformers was able to film in Chicago, man. I'm like, was that why? But I'm like, no, there wasn't a conflict of interest there because Transformers came out late. So in my mind I was like, why didn't he come back? And so I think I felt it mainly in, it was hard to get a sense of place and scale, because the film jumped.

Eli Price (01:08:09.787)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Eli Price (01:08:23.713)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (01:08:32.983)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (01:08:34.994)
and I did, you know, and it was interesting because I, in looking at some of the production notes, you know, like they're saying, you know, they're shooting in different cities, in different seasons, at different times of day, you know, it's like, it requires so much planning and like to their credit, like, you know, they, they pulled it off, but it does result in like, yeah, like I don't, like maybe when you see the bridges explode and you kind of get a sense, like, okay, like there, we kind of see.

Eli Price (01:08:47.748)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (01:09:03.502)
how big Gotham is, but I'm still, I don't know. I'm just like, when the, you know, the bats flying over, I'm like, where's this again? And like, you know, the car chase with the tumblers and the bat pot, I'm like, I'm kind of getting lost a little bit about where it is. So it's, I don't, I think watching it, I was kind of swept in the spectacle, but then it's like afterwards learning. I'm like, okay, actually it makes sense why sometimes I was lost there because it was shot in three different places in three different settings.

Eli Price (01:09:04.027)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (01:09:17.429)
Yeah.

Eli Price (01:09:28.001)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Zachary Lee (01:09:31.374)
three different times and all that sort of stuff. So yeah, that makes sense.

Eli Price (01:09:34.575)
There's actually, I think I was reading, there's a part in the kind of war at the end, the little, you know, police and underworld war there at the end where Batman and Bane are fighting and I can't remember, there's a section where Bane like kicks Batman, like in the chest and Batman flies back and like that is shot in one city.

Zachary Lee (01:09:51.403)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (01:09:58.765)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (01:10:03.563)
and the steps that Batman lands on are like in another city. And so he lived, Bane literally kicks Batman from one city to another. Yeah. Which I guess like you do kind of like lose that sense of space, which I think is like, I guess maybe like a nitpick of a flaw for this.

Zachary Lee (01:10:07.638)
That's so funny, oh wow.

Zachary Lee (01:10:13.193)
That's how powerful he is. That's crazy. That's wild.

Eli Price (01:10:29.103)
But at the same time, if you're just letting yourself be swept up by it, you don't really notice the difference. Like even in that, you don't really notice necessarily, oh, they were in one city, he kicks them, and now they're in another city. Unless you're really dialed into that thinking about it. So in one sense, it's kind of like, yeah, you lose your sense of place a bit. But also like,

Zachary Lee (01:10:42.771)
It's not another city.

Yeah.

Eli Price (01:10:57.239)
the editing is done well enough where like, if you just like allow it to like sweep over you, then like you don't necessarily notice. So like, it's kind of like a weak point and a strong point at the same time. Cause you're like, man, the editing is actually like pretty good when you think about jump, you're jumping between different cities in the editing for the same like scene.

Zachary Lee (01:11:10.56)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (01:11:14.327)
Mm-hmm.

Zachary Lee (01:11:18.205)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (01:11:21.886)
Yeah, yeah. I like your point though that you made of how like when you think of the big city, like think about Gotham, you know, and so I like that like everywhere and it's like both everything and nothing in a way at the same time because it's the amalgamation of all these different parts. So that like and you know and then it ties in to like I guess you could think about it like you're bringing it back to like it's not just a tale of two cities it's like a tale.

Eli Price (01:11:34.864)
Mm-hmm.

Zachary Lee (01:11:48.53)
or the Ford City, you know, I don't know, or like, you know, thinking through all the different parts that it was there, but even that idea of like, the divisions that exist both within the socioeconomic layer of Gotham, but even in just like physically where this film was shot, there's division and there's difference. So it kind of plays into maybe some of that, you know, those tensions there, but once again, maybe I'm just like completely reading into this and that's not what Lee Smith or Nolan had in mind when they were editing and doing this, but.

Eli Price (01:11:50.294)
Yeah.

Eli Price (01:12:04.046)
Yeah.

Eli Price (01:12:11.419)
for sure.

Zachary Lee (01:12:18.114)
It's a good point that you made and I like how that's the way I'd like to read it.

Eli Price (01:12:23.223)
Yeah, it's one of those things where it's like, well, I don't know that they had this in mind, but also like it's right there in the art. So like, you know, that's, that's a part of art is like, sometimes you communicate things you didn't intend, because you have. It's a, it's a two way street art is you have the creator and then the viewer in this case, or the, the person that's taking in the art. And so, you know, you never know how someone is going to interpret it.

Zachary Lee (01:12:37.944)
Totally.

Zachary Lee (01:12:42.242)
Yeah.

Eli Price (01:12:53.367)
which yeah, it's, yeah, I've watched movies in the theaters before where like, I really got the sense that the audience wasn't on the same page as the filmmaker, which is kind of one of those things where I was like, is this the filmmaker's fault or the audience's fault? And it's kind of like, I'm not really sure, you know? Yeah.

Zachary Lee (01:13:08.174)
That's the film.

Zachary Lee (01:13:15.488)
or thoughts.

Zachary Lee (01:13:20.014)
You ready?

Eli Price (01:13:23.691)
Yeah, so one of the things that, you know, kind of going off of like the location, which, you know, Nolan does a ton of location shooting. Just like the production design on this, you know, he's got Nathan Crowley back from he didn't have Nathan Crowley for inception. Crowley was working on something else at the time. But yeah, he comes back.

with Nathan and like, I really enjoy Nathan Crowley's like production design stuff. He's worked with Nolan I think ever since I want to say either Memento or Insomnia up to this point with the exception of Inception. And I really like his production design. He does some like really incredible work.

Zachary Lee (01:14:13.41)
Yeah. Got it.

Eli Price (01:14:24.179)
Um, like, uh, so I mentioned like the cardington hangers outside of London. Um, he, they, they use those again, like, so they built, um, like the, I think they, they built several huge sets in those hang, cause those hangers are like, I want to say like 160 feet tall or something like that. And so they're able to build these like humongous sets, like, um,

Zachary Lee (01:14:48.094)
Mm.

Eli Price (01:14:53.371)
They built the pit in there, the set for the pit, which was like, I wanna say, I remember reading like 70 feet tall. And then they built the sewer, like the Bain layer down there in the suit, like his underground sewer layer.

was built in one of those hangers. And then I think like the actual like inside of the prison, the pit prison was built in there too. And so there's these huge humongous sets that they built in there. It's really cool like if you go, if you have the Blu-ray or DVD with the special features, if you don't and you're interested, I'm sure.

Zachary Lee (01:15:47.011)
Yeah.

Eli Price (01:15:50.223)
Like you could probably get it at the library. But yeah, just watching like even if you just like are working and have it on in the background and can like look up every once in a while, it's like watching like these I mind is blank of the term but The where you like film over a long length of time and it goes really time-lapse You can watch like these little time-lapse of like the set going up

Zachary Lee (01:15:52.21)
Yeah, no, I'm thinking about doing that now.

Zachary Lee (01:16:00.031)
Right, and you're seeing it.

Zachary Lee (01:16:15.319)
Timely, yeah.

Eli Price (01:16:19.771)
And it's like really incredible these humongous sets that they're building. But so I thought that was really, they really cool. The so the pit was like modeled after the there's these, I can't remember what it's called, but the way that the stairs are like the kind of like overlapping, like layered stairs going up.

was modeled after something like an India, like a certain sort of temple or something like that. And it's really, really fascinating to look at, but also has that Nolan geometric, very geometrically specific set design kind of thing going for it too.

Zachary Lee (01:17:10.966)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (01:17:14.607)
Right.

Zachary Lee (01:17:18.186)
Yeah, you had shared like MC Escher, right, was like an influence. Yeah, so that's like shapes and you know staircases and things like that I can see. Or like the Jorge Luis Borges, that like the labyrinth and those ideas too that are all there. So yeah, I can see that.

Eli Price (01:17:22.06)
Yeah, MC Asher.

Eli Price (01:17:26.151)
Mm-hmm. Yes.

Eli Price (01:17:33.019)
Mm-hmm. Oh Yeah Yeah, which I love I love that. Um, I love that they're like thinking Like at that level when they're like making their sets Like even though like the Batcave Which that one was built at this like an auto Sony lot in LA because they needed obviously needed like a water tank and that student like

Zachary Lee (01:17:46.051)
Right, right.

Eli Price (01:18:00.303)
that lot has a water tank. So they're like, I guess we're going to build it here sort of thing. Um, but yeah, the amount of work that went into like, cause like, when you look at that bat cave for one, it like is a really good mix of the bat cave and Batman McGinn's and the kind of bunker in, uh, the dark night that he has where you're kind of like mixing this like earthy cave.

Zachary Lee (01:18:03.03)
They can do it. Yeah.

Zachary Lee (01:18:27.872)
Yeah.

Eli Price (01:18:28.087)
Um, with like the kind of very geometric, like modern look, um, which I think works really well. And then like, you have like the waterfall and you know, the little cube that comes up, you know, that. It kind of ends on even is like they, you know, they built that, you know, to, to come up like out of the water. Um, and then like, even if you just like look in the backgrounds of the walls, you can see like.

Zachary Lee (01:18:39.34)
Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. That like has this too.

Zachary Lee (01:18:50.59)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (01:18:56.991)
Remains of like kind of pillar structures and stuff That's like really cool So, yeah, that's one of the things about these Really all of these films is like just the production design in my opinion is just incredible The amount of work they put into it it's just really cool. Yeah

Zachary Lee (01:19:19.986)
Mm-hmm. Handcrafted. All there.

Eli Price (01:19:24.271)
But yeah, the characters have a lot of design around them too. So the two that I always think of, obviously, with this movie are Bane and Catwoman, especially Bane. He has the costume designer and some of the extra features. She was talking about how she was thinking about, she had several influences as far as like, she was thinking about World War II,

Zachary Lee (01:19:28.535)
Mm-hmm.

Zachary Lee (01:19:35.213)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (01:19:54.311)
gear, she was thinking about like French Revolution kind of like clothing, she was thinking about there was, I want to say like...

I don't know, there was a specific like, middle European country that she had mentioned, like their military kind of gear sort of thing. And like mixing that all together to get like that sheepskin coat, jacket sort of thing that like is a mix of like, it kind of has that romantic period feel to it, but also like very military.

Zachary Lee (01:20:34.209)
Yeah.

Eli Price (01:20:37.379)
with like the boots and whatnot. Um, and the other thing was his mask. Um, which is a really incredible design. Um, and kind of like when you look at Bane, it's different than he looks like in the comics and stuff. Um, cause in the comics, if I'm not mistaken, it's kind of like a full, like a full, like more Luchador looking style. Mass. Um,

Zachary Lee (01:20:37.432)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (01:20:44.523)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (01:21:04.002)
That's right.

Eli Price (01:21:07.315)
And, uh, cause he, he kind of has like Bane is pretty sure like, uh, Hispanic roots. And so.

Zachary Lee (01:21:13.706)
Yeah, I was about to say that would fit the character's origin. So yeah, I didn't even think about that.

Eli Price (01:21:17.26)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, and so, but they went with something totally different. And so, like, one of the things that they brought up that I thought was really cool was Bane's mask, what it covers on his face is like the inverse of what Batman's mask covers. So, like, for Batman's mask, you're covering everything except, like, the mouth and jaw area, and for Bane, it's like the inverse of that. Yeah, which is like this kind of, like, way of, like,

Zachary Lee (01:21:35.86)
Uhhhhhh...

Yeah, your mouth, it's like just that. Yeah, that's crazy.

Eli Price (01:21:48.811)
making the design match the mirror images of the two characters sort of thing. I was like, oh wow, that's really cool. I never thought of that. And then, yeah, she kind of talked about how she wanted it to be animalistic too. And it really does look like a jaw, like an animal jaw, kind of ready to dig into you.

Zachary Lee (01:22:01.105)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (01:22:11.158)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (01:22:16.278)
Yeah, there's so much going on there with the wiring and everything like that. So yeah, it's like, it's just continually amazing to think about like, how not, because apparently it's also, it was really tight, you know, it was like gripping his face is what the production designer said. So I was just like, the fact that you not only are wearing this, but like having to act and like not only act now, do fight scenes in this, like that's a different level of dedication and perseverance to have to do that.

Eli Price (01:22:20.001)
Yep.

Eli Price (01:22:27.604)
Mm hmm. Yeah, yeah.

Eli Price (01:22:38.22)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (01:22:42.611)
Yeah. I was, I was waiting when I was, while I was watching to like hear if they talked about like how long he was having to wear that at a time, they never really mentioned it. Um, but I was like, man, I wonder how long he's like keeping this on. Like over a period of time, like when they start shooting, is he just like leaving it on most of the time, or does he like take it off in between shoots or what, um, but yeah, they didn't, they never mentioned them, fortunately. We'll never know.

Zachary Lee (01:23:04.119)
Yeah.

Right.

Zachary Lee (01:23:11.286)
No. Yeah.

Eli Price (01:23:13.155)
Um, yeah, it, uh, and then like Catwoman too. Um, like the way they, they wanted to keep her, Nolan was, it's funny. Nolan was like weary about doing Bane, but he was also weary about doing, um, uh, Catwoman. Like he was like, I don't know. Um, and Jonathan, I think Jonathan Goya were like, no, no. Like she's like, she can be like a grounded character. She doesn't have to be like, um,

Zachary Lee (01:23:17.633)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (01:23:30.451)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (01:23:41.131)
Right.

Eli Price (01:23:42.735)
this like out there comic bookies sort of thing. But yeah, like the way the goggles, her like night vision goggles flip up to look like cat ears, that is something that like they kind of like built into the design to kind of like make it like, oh, hey, like she's cat woman, like nudge without ever really calling her a cat woman.

Zachary Lee (01:23:51.676)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (01:24:07.43)
Right, yeah, no, it's like, I'm just double checking, looking at it now, yeah, it's like, the way every day, like, we really wanna make this, like, rooted in, like, in reality. Like, how would this, how could we get away with the design in a way that, like, makes sense?

Eli Price (01:24:17.14)
Uh-huh.

Eli Price (01:24:22.171)
Mm-hmm. Even to the detail of like, they're like, oh, she's a cat burglar. So like she would need to like have the kind of like a jeweler magnifying thing to be able to flip down to like inspect jewels. And like so if you like look closely, you can see like there's these little things that she can like flip down on her goggles to like inspect jewelry to see. I guess if like as.

Zachary Lee (01:24:44.866)
Hmm, interesting.

Eli Price (01:24:49.631)
Is this real? Should I steal this one? You know? Yeah. And then like one of the things I thought was cool was she like the costume designer was talking about how like they were less interested in making like a sexy cat woman suit and more like practical suit. And so like, which I thought was cool because it's like she is like, in that way, like Batman, like she has a very like practical suit with like

Zachary Lee (01:24:52.454)
Right, right, yeah.

Zachary Lee (01:25:07.542)
Yeah.

Eli Price (01:25:19.375)
gadgets and like Yeah, just the way like she has like her little like knives built into her heels sort of thing and Really cool. I think really cool and then to like her wardrobe is Versatile because like her character has to like switch personas a lot and so like the main one I think about is like when she's like

Zachary Lee (01:25:41.323)
Yeah.

Eli Price (01:25:45.987)
the maid at the party at the beginning and then she's leaving and she's like ripping off like the white stuff to make it look like an elegant dress. It's like, oh, that's pretty like cool, like way to do like her wardrobe matching her switching persona sort of thing.

Zachary Lee (01:25:54.234)
Right. Yeah.

Zachary Lee (01:26:01.51)
Exactly. Yeah, as she says, she's adaptable or I'm adaptable, you know, and I'm like that, that really comes through in those choices there.

Eli Price (01:26:05.961)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (01:26:09.707)
Yeah, I also heard Zimmer talking about his theme for her in the score. I love the way he put it. He said, yeah, I wanted to make her theme like this elegant piano. And he said he made it like elegant piano, but with crooked, morally ambiguous notes. And I was like, oh, because I was playing it in the extra features as he was saying that, and I was like, oh, I hear it.

Zachary Lee (01:26:15.177)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (01:26:37.025)
Right.

Eli Price (01:26:39.011)
Like that's really like interesting, morally ambiguous notes. Like I would have never thought about like.

Zachary Lee (01:26:41.57)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (01:26:44.974)
I know, I don't even know where to begin with that. So, yeah. That's great.

Eli Price (01:26:48.555)
Yeah, but I guess that's what I guess that's the way you talk when you're a composer is you have to relate your like particular notes to a certain like, I don't know, theme or emotion or whatever. Yeah. But yeah, that's really cool. Yeah, there's, there's a lot I love. So one of the things that's fun with like Nolan movies like this is you can like

Zachary Lee (01:26:54.207)
Bye.

Zachary Lee (01:27:02.562)
Fem exactly, Virtue, yeah, that sort of thing.

Eli Price (01:27:17.755)
talk about your favorite like set pieces or like action sequences like do you have do you have one that stands out for you as far as like your favorite like action set piece

Zachary Lee (01:27:26.291)
Mm-mm.

Zachary Lee (01:27:31.214)
that of this film or just like, I know, I wasn't saying of this film or like of Nolan's, yeah, of this one in particular. You know, it is a good question. I do think that the, what is it? When Batman and Bane first fight, I think that's like, that one is just so, like even when I was rewatching the film today, I think I just love, I think one, it's just that I like that Batman uses gadgets.

Eli Price (01:27:32.023)
putting you on the spot. Yeah, this film.

Zachary Lee (01:27:59.638)
there, like the smoke bombs and I don't know, it's like, and like, he's trying to turn off the lights. Like, I feel like sometimes there's this sense like, for like a grounded Batman, like, we just want to make him like use his fists. And I like how he's like, no, I'm like, getting my butt handed to me, we got to throw some smoke bombs here and like dim the light. I don't know. So that utility aspect, but just like, it's funny because like, you know, with Dark Knight, like he fights Joker, but like Joker's not a fighter, you know, like he's not like gonna give him the same match.

Eli Price (01:27:59.77)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (01:28:16.303)
Ha ha ha.

Eli Price (01:28:25.656)
Mm-hmm.

Zachary Lee (01:28:28.97)
So I feel like I was missing a good, like you're having these two people go at it. Like you said, they're like both League of Shadows fighting style. And it's just like, it's brutal. They're not pulling their punches when they're doing it. So I thought that was really well done. I mean, sad for the hero, for the protagonist, but it was, yeah, I think that's my favorite. Like fight, choreographed fight scene.

Eli Price (01:28:29.016)
Right.

Eli Price (01:28:50.308)
Right?

Eli Price (01:28:55.311)
Oh yeah. Yeah. And they, um, they even talked about like what the design of that set. Um, they like, they knew they were, they needed a place for them to fight. And so they, they actually like built the set with that fight in mind to make sure there was like interesting ways to like frame the fight in that, within that, like the set that they built for it. Um, which is like just another like really cool element of like

Zachary Lee (01:29:11.17)
Mmm, yeah.

Eli Price (01:29:25.655)
really like thinking through like, okay, this is like gonna be a huge like middle of the story climax. Like we need to make everything needs to be like firing on all cylinders, including the set that they're fighting in. Like it's a it's a brutal like action sequence. Like the sounds are like very like what's like I guess visceral is a good word.

Zachary Lee (01:29:33.72)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (01:29:38.098)
Exactly. Yeah.

Zachary Lee (01:29:47.807)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (01:29:54.771)
Yeah.

Eli Price (01:29:55.479)
For like the sounds in that sequence like just the punching is like and the grunting and I'm pretty sure they like cut the score for that too

Zachary Lee (01:30:00.45)
there.

Yeah, no, I'm like, because I remember like, when they're doing it, you know, it's like the punch, like you're saying the punches reverberate throughout because it's like it like rattles, there's like the water that's there. So it's like, it's, you know, like a cave, you know, so it's like, there's this like primal like, element, that's all there to you know, they're like, both dressed up as characters, like, just wailing on each other. So yeah, it's like, or you know, even like the, you know,

Eli Price (01:30:10.639)
Mm-hmm.

Zachary Lee (01:30:30.958)
the Bane's mercenaries watching too. So there's this arena cage match vibe that's there too. So yeah, it's all very well-constructed. But yeah, you're right, the score cut out there.

Eli Price (01:30:33.889)
Yeah.

Eli Price (01:30:38.253)
Yeah.

Eli Price (01:30:44.443)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. And yeah, it makes it even more like of a brutal. Like sequence because there's no like score. Which like. Like, like where you kind of talked about earlier, like Nolan does everything with like such purpose, it's like he was like, you know, out of all the sequences to cut this score, like this is the one because it's like.

Zachary Lee (01:31:12.387)
This.

Eli Price (01:31:14.967)
It's almost like the punches and the grunts and stuff is like the music for that, for that sequence. Um, yeah.

Zachary Lee (01:31:20.37)
Mm-hmm. So true. Right, and then it ends with the back crack, you know, and like that's how we end, you know, that time.

Eli Price (01:31:26.943)
Yeah, which is brutal.

Yeah, for me, it's hard not to pick like that opening sequence. Just because like, it's, I don't know, it's just such a fun sequence. Like probably like, um, I don't know, for one, like it's an interesting way to introduce a villain. I would say like, they were definitely were going for like a similar, like villain introduction that they were. That they.

Zachary Lee (01:31:36.526)
true.

Zachary Lee (01:31:43.703)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (01:32:00.811)
accomplished with Joker for that opening sequence. I don't think it's quite like as good as that opening sequence for Joker, but as far as like an action sequence goes, it's like really good. I mean they're literally like pulling like plain fuselages, like hauling them through the air on cables. Like they're, it's all real like...

Zachary Lee (01:32:03.148)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (01:32:15.55)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (01:32:27.896)
easy.

Eli Price (01:32:30.583)
Um, all of that stuff is real except for like there's a few times where they had to like do a little bit of green screen work, but really like it's, I mean, they literally had guys like on walking on the outside of the plane. Um, they had, um, like the, the sequences where the plane they're in the plane and it's vertical, obviously like they're not flying through the sky.

Zachary Lee (01:32:54.082)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (01:32:57.755)
for those, but they had a fuselage built on a rig that could move and shake around. And so it's still real, it's not CGI, except for maybe adding in the sky. When you look down and you see the sky, you have to add that in digitally, but.

Zachary Lee (01:32:58.018)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (01:33:03.699)
Move that. Yeah.

Zachary Lee (01:33:09.106)
Yeah. And if I'm not, yeah. The sky. Right. If I'm not mistaken was, I know not all of the film was shot with IMAX, but I know Nolan and IMAX, it's like a huge thing, but like that opening scene was shot with that, I'm pretty sure. It might, I think I'm remembering it. Yeah. So you've been just like that, getting that scale up.

Eli Price (01:33:25.709)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (01:33:32.259)
Yeah. So the dark night was actually the first narrative movie to use IMAX ever. Up to that point, it had just been like nature docs using IMAX. And so like for he revolutionized like that use of that technology with the dark night and then in this. So the dark night had, I want to say 28 minutes shot in IMAX.

Zachary Lee (01:33:42.506)
I use IMAX. Crazy.

Zachary Lee (01:33:47.685)
Yeah

Zachary Lee (01:34:02.495)
I'm Mason.

Eli Price (01:34:03.672)
And this movie has over an hour was shot in IMAX And so like not probably not quite half of the movie, but like almost half of the movie was shot in IMAX I'm just really incredible. He actually he Once they had finished. I don't know if the whole movie was finished, but they Definitely like the that opening sequence

Zachary Lee (01:34:06.731)
Wow.

Zachary Lee (01:34:14.067)
Almost half, yeah.

Eli Price (01:34:30.231)
which they showed before. He's done this with a few now. Like he did it with The Dark Knight. He did it with this movie. They showed it as like a teaser, like scene before a movie in theaters, in IMAX theaters. And so like this was one of those. But he like brought together some filmmakers and I can't remember.

Zachary Lee (01:34:45.054)
Yeah, that's right.

Eli Price (01:34:59.779)
I had heard or read a list of who was there. I honestly don't remember which filmmakers it was. But he brought them together and showed them this sequence and gave a speech about, we're filmmakers, we need to fight for celluloid and shooting on real film or it's going to die.

Zachary Lee (01:35:06.938)
Yeah, I was reading that list though. Yeah, that's cool.

Zachary Lee (01:35:23.136)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (01:35:26.626)
Yeah.

Eli Price (01:35:28.143)
Yeah, really like, he was really starting to go to bat for that with this movie. Um, yeah. Yeah. The IMAX is makes it, the IMAX just makes it pop. So like, um, so much, um, like I have, I think my TV is like a 50 inch TV. It's not like huge.

Zachary Lee (01:35:35.33)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (01:35:44.32)
Mm-hmm.

Zachary Lee (01:35:53.163)
Yeah.

Eli Price (01:35:54.223)
But when it switches to those iMac shots, even like on my 50 inch TV, it's like, wow, this is incredible. This looks incredible. Like it's a, it's a very like obvious difference in my opinion. Um, seeing those shots, uh,

Zachary Lee (01:36:01.494)
This is great. Yeah.

Zachary Lee (01:36:07.37)
Yeah. No, that's not true. Yeah.

Eli Price (01:36:13.332)
Yeah, that action sequence is good. The thing that I always think of when I think of this movie is that shot where Bane is up in the fire, up in the fuselage, and drops down to right on top of the camera. And it's just like, man, what an awesome shot. What an incredible shot.

Zachary Lee (01:36:25.744)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Zachary Lee (01:36:31.196)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (01:36:34.798)
Yeah, that one was great. I know. Yeah, that like, it's so, so well done. What an entrance for an

Eli Price (01:36:41.379)
Yeah.

Eli Price (01:36:44.607)
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Um, yeah, I, um, I don't know the, I guess, uh, one that's like, not necessarily like, I love it for what it actually is on screen, but just like thinking about like how he actually used, um, like hundreds and hundreds of extras is like the fight, like the brawl in the streets. Like,

Zachary Lee (01:37:09.166)
Thank you.

Eli Price (01:37:12.675)
Um, there's so much like CGI work done these days with making crowds and those fight sequences. And, um, they really like did a lot of work. They basically like had an assembly line of like breakfast makeup, like get you out on the street sort of thing for, for these, like, I want to say it was like over a thousand, like 1100 or something people.

Zachary Lee (01:37:32.082)
right for this.

Yeah, it was... I know I'm trying to like find the list because I was looking also when they like had the extras for the football game too and everything like that in that scene but it was it was a good number so yeah it's like...

Eli Price (01:37:50.307)
Yeah, the football sequence, um, they, they got, uh, it was at, um, is that Hinesfield or something like that in Pittsburgh? Um, they got like a ton of people for that. Um, I want to say like the stadium holds like 60 or 80,000. Um, and they got, I want to say, man, I wish I would have written it down. Um,

Zachary Lee (01:38:03.019)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (01:38:18.238)
No, I'm reading the production notes. It was like 11,000, more than 11,000 extras went to the stadium. Insane. Hinesfield, oh, that's right.

Eli Price (01:38:22.371)
Yeah, yeah, they got 11. Yeah, they got 11,000 people. That's right. Yeah. I remember it now. Yeah. They got 11,000 people from the city of Pittsburgh to show up for that. And then the way they did it was, um, cause obviously like when you look at this stadium that holds 60,000 and there's only 11,000, like you have to fill it in CGI somehow, but what they did was they spread everyone out.

in these sections. So then when they were shooting like this section, they like spread everyone out. And then they did these, they did a ton of like shots like outside the stadium with like the people that showed up in front of a green screen like cheering and stuff. And then they added like them in like to fill in all the gaps. And they actually brought in like a bunch of like Pittsburgh Steelers players and like

Zachary Lee (01:39:07.148)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (01:39:15.334)
Yep, that's right.

Eli Price (01:39:17.695)
And then like other like actual football players, um, maybe not pros, but like people that knew how to play football to like do that sequence, like Ben Roethlisberger was there and, um, Troy, uh, Troy Palamalu and Heinz Ward is actually the one that returns the kick. Um,

Zachary Lee (01:39:29.639)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (01:39:37.01)
Yeah, I was just looking at the notes again, I hear that's so funny that I love that. Like the, or I think, yeah, like the opposing side, the mayor of Pittsburgh was playing the kicker for like the other, yeah, he was the kicker, yeah, so it's like, oh, that's what you were saying, yeah, so it's like, I love that.

Eli Price (01:39:40.877)
Yeah.

Eli Price (01:39:46.464)
Mm-hmm. He was the kicker. Yeah.

Eli Price (01:39:52.971)
Yeah, yeah, I love that the mayor of Pittsburgh like actually was a kicker in college and so like he was like, yeah I would love to kick do the kickoff Yeah, what are the odds like that the mayor of your city that you're filming in was a kicker

Zachary Lee (01:39:59.735)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (01:40:02.93)
Right. He's like, we can get it on film to prove it that I did it. He's like, that's...

was a kicker, yeah. No, but like even with your, like I think that's just why like I love the third film so much too, it's just like that like scene of the two factions like swarming each other is like wow, to think like these are real people doing this, like, I know exactly, right? But I'm like, wow, yeah.

Eli Price (01:40:27.479)
Yeah, which shouldn't be like that impressive, but it is like people don't do that. People don't do that anymore.

Zachary Lee (01:40:36.854)
I know, yeah. And like, it's not only the people, right? It's like you have like the Batmobiles that are there, so it's like the Batplan, it's like you have so many different parts that are here where it's just like, it's such a, that the planning and the dedication to like really, like you said, go bigger with the scale. And it's like, no, like we have a $250 million, $230 million budget. We're gonna do it for things like, this is what it's for, you know? And I'm like, yes, thank you.

Eli Price (01:40:42.831)
Yeah.

Eli Price (01:40:46.894)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (01:40:58.849)
Yeah.

Eli Price (01:41:04.023)
Yeah. I think, uh, I think I hadn't heard, like, I can't remember if it was Nolan or like, um, maybe Chris Korbald, who's like the special effects, um, uh, coordinator or supervisor. Um, one of them was like talking about how like, well, like we would either spend this money like on like CGI work or we can like spend it on real people and it's like, kind of comes out to the same. And so like,

Zachary Lee (01:41:30.153)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (01:41:33.271)
Let's just spin it on real people. Yeah. And I think I even saw like in the special features, they like actually did like fighting choreography training for about like five or 600 of the people. Yeah. So that when they are at least a few hundred so that when they were, they basically like would put those people that were in that training like around Batman and Bane. So that like when you're getting those shots, those closer up shots of Batman and Bane.

Zachary Lee (01:41:34.729)
Only of you four.

Zachary Lee (01:41:48.467)
Oh really?

Zachary Lee (01:42:02.368)
Right, it's like...

Eli Price (01:42:02.959)
the people that are around them actually have fighting choreography of training a little bit. They did a few days.

Zachary Lee (01:42:09.518)
Right, yeah. Yeah, instead of just like random, you know, people throwing, which is what I would do if I was there. I would just be like, I don't know how I'm supposed to play fight this right now.

Eli Price (01:42:15.059)
Yeah.

Eli Price (01:42:19.775)
Yeah, well that's how like the big like the huge crowd sequences are the ton of those people are probably just like There's like running into each other. Yeah

Zachary Lee (01:42:26.694)
It was just running. We're just here for a good time, you know exactly. Yeah.

Zachary Lee (01:42:39.306)
No, you're good.

Eli Price (01:42:41.33)
Oh, sorry. If you need to use like a bathroom or grab some water or something, my wife needs me to help put the baby down. I'll just be like a minute or two at the most. Yeah.

Zachary Lee (01:42:50.946)
Okay.

No worries, I'll go grab, just grab a quick glass of water and then I'll be back, so that's great. Cool, no worries.

Eli Price (01:42:57.067)
Yeah, yeah, I'll be right back.

Eli Price (01:46:31.681)
Sweet. Um, okay.

Zachary Lee (01:46:32.82)
Yes.

Eli Price (01:46:39.791)
I'm actually going to take a drink of water and then we can jump back in.

Zachary Lee (01:46:42.826)
Yeah, for sure.

Zachary Lee (01:46:52.398)
everything all right.

Eli Price (01:46:54.127)
Yeah, she does like a dream feed. Basically, she just does like a breastfeed like kind of early in the night. So she can kind of like hold over till the morning sort of thing. And so it's just kind of like easier and she's less likely to like wake back up.

Zachary Lee (01:47:08.639)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (01:47:12.429)
Yeah.

Eli Price (01:47:23.435)
you know, do the transfer. Yeah. Which, uh, which is good for her, but also good for us because they're like in the next room over, so we would hear like in the background.

Zachary Lee (01:47:25.534)
Exactly. No, that makes sense. Happy to work with you.

Zachary Lee (01:47:38.642)
Oh, yeah, for getting off, huh? It's like, yeah, it gets there.

Eli Price (01:47:48.599)
Oh, your camera's like really delayed.

Zachary Lee (01:47:51.447)
Oh, no, okay, let me turn it off again and then maybe, is my audio okay or is it, audio's good?

Eli Price (01:47:57.995)
Yeah, your audio is okay. You're the, the visual is like behind.

Zachary Lee (01:48:04.066)
How about now? Still delayed? Okay, let me do the classic unplug and then see if it.

Eli Price (01:48:06.336)
Yeah.

Eli Price (01:48:14.699)
Yeah, no worries.

Eli Price (01:48:31.854)
No.

And now it's saying your browser is not supported.

Eli Price (01:48:41.051)
What should I do? It says, let's find out.

Eli Price (01:48:48.643)
What browser are you using?

Eli Price (01:48:53.095)
Oh, how weird. It's saying to use Chrome.

Eli Price (01:49:04.58)
Uh huh.

Eli Price (01:49:12.515)
That's so strange because it hasn't been a problem this whole time.

Eli Price (01:49:21.583)
Technology.

Eli Price (01:49:36.558)
Okay.

Eli Price (01:49:45.443)
Yeah, not a problem.

Eli Price (01:50:04.191)
You can try, one thing you can try is just like, um, refresh the page and it'll get you to like, if you want to like plug your stuff back in and turn it on and refresh the page, then it'll like get you to like join back into the studio. And maybe, maybe that's, maybe that'll fix it.

Eli Price (01:50:30.632)
No, it'll be fine. Riverside's pretty good at making sure everything syncs back up, so yeah.

Zachary Lee (01:50:58.91)
Okay, I think we're back.

Yeah, I think it should. Is it delayed or is it okay?

Eli Price (01:51:06.253)
Note is perfect.

Yep. It's the, yep. The classic refresh, turn it off and back on. Have you ever seen, um, the IT crowd that show? Oh yeah. There's like, uh, it's, um, some IT guys. It's like a British comedy, uh, sitcom. And, uh, they, um, like every time they answer the phone, they're like, Hey, this is IT. Have you tried turning it off and back on again?

Zachary Lee (01:51:13.465)
The classic refresh I know.

Zachary Lee (01:51:20.186)
Ah, no I haven't, what is it?

Zachary Lee (01:51:27.882)
Oh, that's funny. I'll look at it.

Zachary Lee (01:51:38.637)
works like a charm, you know? It's great.

Eli Price (01:51:40.203)
Oh yeah.

Eli Price (01:51:44.055)
Okay, well, I will... Yep, it looks like we're good. You're uploading again now too, so sweet. I love that about Riverside is like, it does like local uploading. I don't know.

Zachary Lee (01:51:52.909)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (01:51:59.977)
Okay, I was wondering what the like little percentage thing was. So already I'm like, I need to use this instead of zoom now. I think already this is great, you know.

Eli Price (01:52:03.918)
Yep.

Eli Price (01:52:07.499)
Yeah, yeah, because you don't so like even if you had been delayed video like because of the internet feed like you don't get that in the final result because It uploads from your like you're uploading your stuff locally from your computer and me from mine

Zachary Lee (01:52:26.422)
And you're doing it for yours, yeah.

Eli Price (01:52:30.771)
With Zoom, if there's buffering or delay, it shows up in the recording. I'll jump back in. I know there's a couple other production design stuff that I wanted to hit. We can jump back in. I think we were talking about the football stuff. Or no, we were talking about the...

Zachary Lee (01:52:37.147)
Mm-hmm. It's rough.

Zachary Lee (01:52:43.888)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (01:52:54.157)
Yeah. Yep. That's right. Yep.

Eli Price (01:52:59.503)
the crowd of people and how they were fighting around Batman. Yeah.

Zachary Lee (01:53:01.333)
Yeah, oh right, the fight scene CGI, or like the ones who choreographed and then the other ones.

Eli Price (01:53:07.979)
Mm-hmm. Okay. All right. I know where I'm going, so I'll jump back in. I'm gonna leave like an audio space so that I can find it post.

Zachary Lee (01:53:12.177)
Great, fantastic.

Eli Price (01:53:22.635)
Yeah. Uh, I just love how like Nolan is so interested in making sure like he does as much as possible, like with something that's real and like tangible, um, like even going back to like the football stadium, they actually like built a raised, um, set on top of the football field, uh, with holes in it for like the players to like fall into literally.

Um, so like even like the players falling into a hole was like, there's like a good bit of CGI work obviously in that, but they had like, you know, explosions going off that were real. Um, kind of like air cannon stuff. And, um, and yeah, players like literally like falling into holes that they built. Um, which is really cool. Um, the other thing that I think is really cool is, uh, the bat, um, the little like

Zachary Lee (01:54:17.78)
Yes.

Eli Price (01:54:19.267)
I don't know what to call it. It's like a.

inverse helicopter because the propellers are on the bottom like it's definitely like one of the most like futuristic technology things in the whole i feel like in the whole like trilogy um but uh but yeah it's really cool and the way that they like i was talking about like they did as much real stuff as they could with it um like obviously like it doesn't actually like fly

Zachary Lee (01:54:25.493)
Right? Yeah.

Zachary Lee (01:54:33.823)
Oh yeah.

Zachary Lee (01:54:53.454)
Yeah.

Eli Price (01:54:54.596)
But like there's shots where like they suspend it from a helicopter and And like have it fly like that way there's And then they do a lot of like rig work with it And like have it on they'll have it on cranes The scene where they're like driving through the streets of Pittsburgh there at the end like the chase

Zachary Lee (01:55:08.185)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (01:55:12.497)
That's right.

Eli Price (01:55:20.591)
It's like mounted on a truck that's like driving it around that and it can like it has like some hydraulics So it can like move around and pivot and stuff and then they obviously like they just in post they like CGI work the truck out of it But so to me like that's kind of like the good way to do CGI like make it actually like moving through the space

Zachary Lee (01:55:25.72)
Oh, okay.

Zachary Lee (01:55:39.128)
Yeah.

Eli Price (01:55:48.663)
And then CGI the thing that's like holding it, you know Which is really cool because like most of the time it's like the opposite It's like oh instead of like CGing out the thing that's like moving it through the space in reality We'll just CG the thing in and it's not actually moving through the space But they even have like an animatronic Batman inside of there like model of Christian Bale Batman

Zachary Lee (01:55:52.949)
Exactly.

Zachary Lee (01:56:04.574)
in right.

Yeah, no.

Zachary Lee (01:56:12.645)
Oh yeah. Modeled in it. That's great. No, it's because even watching it now, I mean, I still find myself like gripped by that fight scene. I would probably say like after the scene where Batman's fighting Bane and you know, under in like the sewers of Gotham sort of thing, like that ending whole fights probably, you know, I love that. But it is interesting because I can, I can, when I say like I can tell they were limited by it being

Eli Price (01:56:25.024)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (01:56:36.525)
Mm-hmm.

Zachary Lee (01:56:42.545)
It's mainly just like, I just, it moves as if it's like a real, like, I don't know, like it's not super histrionic. I don't know. It's like, it's like shooting its things, like it destroys some of the vehicles and stuff but it's not like this soup, you know, like your Oppenheimer explosion type thing, which even that, you know, was like, was well done in the film. But like, it's just, it's very, it's like.

Eli Price (01:56:59.17)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (01:57:03.512)
Right.

Zachary Lee (01:57:10.961)
I could see a different version of this from different creatives where they would make it, you know, like maybe like super like, I don't know, like doing a whole bunch. It just felt like there were limitations, but I kind of liked it more because of that. You know, like it's like, I know this is a real model that they're using for the most part and when they can and like what they're able to do with like a 3D dimensional object is very impressive. So I will gladly take that over like.

Eli Price (01:57:25.913)
Yeah, yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (01:57:35.767)
Right. Oh yeah.

Zachary Lee (01:57:39.285)
some computer graphic video game thing where it's like, you know, going hyper speed or doing whatever. And it's like cool, but it's like not, as you said, there's that like real earthy element to the thing. So, you know.

Eli Price (01:57:52.247)
Yeah, yeah. And anytime they're like, there are those moments of like it taking off really fast. Like those are like very like, you know, sparsely used and those are CGI. Like they did have to CGI it in a few spots. Just because like what it was doing was like not possible to do with a rig. And so, but yeah, those are actually like really sparsely used.

Zachary Lee (01:58:04.152)
Exactly.

Zachary Lee (01:58:14.538)
Yeah, that's right. I read that.

Eli Price (01:58:22.479)
But yeah, just like, there's so much you could talk about with the production, like, kind of like repurposing the tumblers and like, there's some parts where they do like some miniatures. Like they built a miniature set of, like they couldn't actually like have a tumbler fall through a roof. And so like they had to build a miniature set for that, that little part where the tumbler falls through.

Zachary Lee (01:58:52.138)
Oh really? That's interesting.

Eli Price (01:58:53.799)
So that's cool to see in the behind the scenes. But yeah, there's so much to with really like Most Christopher Nolan movies like the production design and special effects is like there's so much to talk about it You could talk for like hours just on that But yeah, but alas we have to like keep things rolling The only other thing that I had noted was like that no one

Zachary Lee (01:59:06.146)
Always.

Oh, totally.

Zachary Lee (01:59:15.461)
Keep the, yeah, keep the train going.

Eli Price (01:59:22.691)
did like he actually did have to go back in and like remix Bane's voice for this because he did that he did like some screenings of that opening sequence and like people were like so like taken out of it because they couldn't understand anything Bane was saying and when you think about it like you kind of do have to like hear what he's saying because it like

Zachary Lee (01:59:28.458)
Yeah, yeah.

Zachary Lee (01:59:44.484)
with saying.

Eli Price (01:59:52.307)
it kind of is like both like building his character and kind of like getting you tuned into like what he's up to. And so like you kind of do have to hear what he's saying. It but yeah that's the constant complaint about Nolan movies is like hearing the vote like people's voices.

Zachary Lee (02:00:06.453)
Yeah, yeah. Well, yeah.

Zachary Lee (02:00:19.693)
Yeah, I know when like Commissioner Gordon was in the hospital, that was a huge one, you know, when the teaser trailer came out. And yeah, I mean, and well, and it's interesting because you have like that issue with, you know, or like, you know, the sound design initially, but then I read that the whole like the chant that the, you know, that Zimmer used to like, is an incorporation of like people calling in around the world, like, you know, to like,

Eli Price (02:00:25.391)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (02:00:43.3)
Mm-hmm.

Zachary Lee (02:00:49.465)
do a chant and then Zimmer like mixed them together because it was like a way to give something back to the fans, which I thought was really cool. So it's just like everything about the audio and like what's being said in that film, just like, you know on any level had to have some hand in it in its production. So yeah, it was just interesting.

Eli Price (02:00:53.435)
Oh cool.

Eli Price (02:01:06.939)
Hmm. Yeah. I did. I did see him talking about like the chant thing and how he came up with it and, um, it's really interesting. Um, and I think it is cool the way he like, he has the chant, but then he like builds it into the score as kind of like it built, like the score starts to build around like the, the tempo and like the, um, I guess like

Zachary Lee (02:01:25.952)
Yep.

Eli Price (02:01:35.279)
the syncope of like how that is moving. Syncopation, I think is the word I was looking for there. Syncope is the name of no one's production company. The syncopation of like the, they're like that rhythm of the chant, like the score starts to like build around that, which is really cool. And they're saying like rise. I can't remember what language it is.

Zachary Lee (02:01:46.287)
No, it's, yeah, I was like, that sounds familiar.

Zachary Lee (02:02:01.425)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (02:02:04.863)
It's a language that I just can't remember what it is. Um, yeah, it was cool seeing like, uh, the him like, or it was somebody like teaching them how to say it. And the, and the special features you have a bunch of dudes just like, like practicing saying, saying the little words in the chant. Um, yeah. Um, yeah, the Zimmer score here is

Zachary Lee (02:02:25.933)
The words, yeah.

Eli Price (02:02:32.023)
really good. There's elements that I think are really good. I think the Catwoman theme, we talked about earlier, was good. The other thing that I think I had heard or read about was how he took the Batman theme, the Batman or Bruce theme one, and it's like two notes, the bum bum, and

Like in the first two, it's very like big and brassy whenever that happens. It's like the blah, uh, like Hans Zimmer, like signature and Nola movies kind of sound. But in this one, because of like, um, the state of Batman, he makes it very much more like a therial sounding, it's not like big and brassy, which I thought was like really cool to like think that through, okay, like this, uh, he's in a different like.

Zachary Lee (02:03:12.181)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (02:03:19.49)
Right.

Exactly.

Zachary Lee (02:03:30.446)
Yeah.

Eli Price (02:03:31.319)
spot in his life, it can't be so like big and in your face. Because this is like a broken down Batman. It's eight years after, we didn't really talk about that yet, but this is set like eight years after the Dark Knight, which is like a significant amount of time. But yeah, we'll probably jump into that a little bit more. But yeah, this movie really like.

Zachary Lee (02:03:43.141)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (02:03:48.852)
Yep.

Zachary Lee (02:03:52.171)
Yeah.

Eli Price (02:04:01.795)
We kind of talked about it earlier, like it really made a lot of money. It opened July 2012. There's like a undercurrent kind of like critical backlash against it. It's definitely like the least regarded of the three for sure, critically. But like

Zachary Lee (02:04:07.921)
Mm-hmm.

Zachary Lee (02:04:24.534)
Mm, yeah.

Eli Price (02:04:29.027)
Some of the words I wrote down that I was seeing and some of the critiques of the time were that it was too grandiose, that it was murky and confused, that it was too self-important. Which I think all of those are fair, but maybe a little bit, maybe trying to put too much on the movie that it wasn't going for, maybe. But yeah, it made 160 million.

Zachary Lee (02:04:34.745)
Yeah.

Hmm.

Zachary Lee (02:04:51.371)
Yeah.

Eli Price (02:04:59.023)
that first weekend and grew to a billion. It didn't have any Oscar nominations, which.

Zachary Lee (02:05:06.253)
Right. I was trying to look into that for the rewards. I was like, this is really interesting.

Eli Price (02:05:10.663)
Yeah, it's like I get it, but also like it's surprising and not surprising at the same time, I guess. Like, because when you think about like, it wasn't like super, it wasn't as highly regarded as like the Dark Knight in that, in its time. And like, I don't know, like performance wise, like, I think today you maybe might see like...

nomination for like maybe Anne Hathaway for like supporting actress or something like that maybe. And then like it's I guess the surprising thing is that like it didn't get any like technical nominations. Yeah.

Zachary Lee (02:05:58.231)
Yeah, which we just talked about the production too, right? So I'm just like, that's crazy.

Eli Price (02:06:03.499)
Yeah, like you would think it would get like costume design at least makeup costume design or like something it just, yeah, it is, it's surprising that it didn't get anything, especially like technical awards, but yeah.

Zachary Lee (02:06:06.522)
Right.

Zachary Lee (02:06:17.129)
Yeah, like I'm seeing like British Academy Film Awards, you know, like Critics Choice, but not like... Yep, exactly. Yeah, but it's like... Yeah, that's so fascinating.

Eli Price (02:06:22.411)
Yeah, it got like Baptist nominations and stuff, but.

Eli Price (02:06:31.711)
Yeah, it's funny, like, so obviously, like, he ends the trilogy here and then like, he actually does like dabble a little bit in producing for some DC stuff, like he produced Man of Steel and I think maybe was either like a producer or executive producer for, I think for Batman versus Superman, I'm pretty sure. And then he's kind of like, okay, I'm done with that.

Zachary Lee (02:06:56.771)
Right, yeah. I was literally thinking about that today. Well, that's what's, it's like, I'm like the fact that Zack Snyder and Christopher Nolan know each other and like have a professional working relationship is just so funny for me to think about. Like, I don't know, it's just like, not because I, it's just like, they just have such different styles of and approaches. I mean, you know, some overlap with the superhero.

Eli Price (02:07:06.607)
Uh-huh.

Eli Price (02:07:17.516)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Zachary Lee (02:07:21.725)
I was literally to tell him like the fact that those two have probably like sat down for like a coffee or a beer just to like chat is that just makes me laugh and it makes me happy. It's just it's funny to think about for me when I think of those two.

Eli Price (02:07:28.175)
Uh-huh.

Eli Price (02:07:34.911)
Yeah. Yeah, it is weird. It is a weird mix when you think about like, so Man of Steel, it like, they really tried to use that realism idea in it. But also like you have Zack Snyder, who like is totally like into making these grandiose like films. And it's like, how did they make that work? Like, it seems like totally like.

Zachary Lee (02:07:47.512)
Totally.

Eli Price (02:08:03.227)
clashing of like ideology, like filmmaking ideology. Cause like when you watch like Zack Snyder's Justice League, you're like, oh yeah, there's nothing about this that feels grounded in reality. Like it's epic and like really fun, but like there's no like, there's no thinking like, oh yeah, I could see how this could be in the real world.

Zachary Lee (02:08:09.365)
Yeah, right.

Zachary Lee (02:08:19.054)
Wait.

Zachary Lee (02:08:28.909)
Right, right, exactly. Yeah. But yeah, definitely for that Man of Steel film. Yeah, I feel like that was like a big drop.

Eli Price (02:08:36.539)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. The the other thing that you kind of brought it up earlier, like the just the idea of this community that he like brought together to make this like they his like this cast and crew were making these films over the course of like eight to 10 years, really. And so like.

Zachary Lee (02:08:52.664)
Mm-hmm.

Zachary Lee (02:09:00.601)
Yeah, yeah.

Eli Price (02:09:03.671)
You know, they have, you know, stints where they're doing, working on other stuff, but like really like it's, you kind of like get the feeling that by the end of it, you're, you kind of have like a little like moviemaking family, you know, um, which is like awesome to think about it's, um, it's something in my West series that I just loved, like listening to like the actors and the crew talk about working with West because he was

Zachary Lee (02:09:18.814)
Oh, totally. Yeah.

Eli Price (02:09:34.063)
So he's so like about like making community and like building an atmosphere of like creativity and like community and connection. And just like thinking about like how when directors go back to like working with the same like cast and crew and stuff and how like you really build this like little family of creatives working together is really a cool thing when you think about it.

Zachary Lee (02:09:45.454)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (02:10:04.479)
Yeah.

Eli Price (02:10:04.695)
And so, man, I mean, like, and over the course of eight to 10 years, I mean, you have like, I mean, kids grow up in that, in that time span. And so like, you have like, I'm sure like kids of cast members, like cast members, like growing up together, like, um, really cool, like to think about just like the, the family community aspect of that, um, and how like it must've felt to like be done.

Zachary Lee (02:10:12.331)
Exactly.

Zachary Lee (02:10:29.562)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (02:10:34.275)
Like how surreal it must have felt like, oh, like we're done. Like we're not making any more Batman movies. Like, must have been super surreal.

Zachary Lee (02:10:35.412)
Honestly.

Zachary Lee (02:10:41.461)
Right, yeah.

Zachary Lee (02:10:46.293)
Yeah, to like to finish that up. I know. And yeah, I mean, I just yeah, I love the like, the reliance on longtime collaborators and just like, you know, we like, you're working with, I don't know, there's always this thing I feel like where, you know, like when as directors get bigger, it's like, I mean, and you know, the people he surround himself with the talent, like, are all big names already, right? But it's just like, I just like that, rather than maybe feel the need, like, there's that trust in his

Eli Price (02:10:54.715)
Mm-hmm.

Zachary Lee (02:11:15.857)
team, as you're saying, to deliver something new and fresh as well. Just because it's the same people, it doesn't mean we're going to be making the same thing all the time. It's like we're going to have some, everyone's coming in with new fresh ideas that we can bounce off of each other. So yeah, that was really interesting.

Eli Price (02:11:21.115)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (02:11:35.915)
Yeah, for sure. Yeah, what about performances? Who's your standout performance for this one?

Zachary Lee (02:11:45.037)
Yeah, you know, I have to say, I think I was it's kind of sort of two for different reasons. But I think like the first one I think is actually I really like, Joseph Gordon, Leavitt's character, the James. Yeah, James Blake, I think. Yeah. But James, I think it's a genre. I mean, James. Yeah, I know it. It was it. I think what I really liked about his was like, there was a level

Eli Price (02:12:00.891)
Okay.

Yeah, James Blake. Robin.

Zachary Lee (02:12:14.913)
It's something that I appreciate about him and what is it? And Anne Hathaway's Selena Kyle Catwoman was this idea of very, I think just the down to earthness of it, I think is really true. Like I just like how from the get go, like James Clocks Bruce is like, I know you're Batman. Don't try to like be acid or like do something different. He's like, we're not gonna try to, you're not gonna try to pretend you're not.

Eli Price (02:12:22.02)
Mm-hmm.

Zachary Lee (02:12:44.057)
we're accepting that as reality, and I'm going to ask you questions about it. And I think that almost forwardness and that like the real worldness, like I think it's easy, like when you have surround, you have a cast of characters, like some are the very, you know, corrupt, like, you know, Ben Mendelsohn's character, you have the more like maybe people who are naive or unaware. So I think like to have someone who isn't just, you know, Jim Gordon, who...

Eli Price (02:12:46.34)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (02:13:03.202)
Mm-hmm.

Zachary Lee (02:13:13.793)
like has an element of like realism about the world. It's like, it feels like he's a product. He's someone who saw Batman grew up, like as he was younger and like, is stepping into a world where Batman's been a thing before, you know, like it's been an understood factor. And I think I just liked that take on it. And I don't know, I thought, I know we, you all saying praises for Michael Caine's Alfred on the Batman Begins episode.

Eli Price (02:13:30.447)
Mm-hmm.

Zachary Lee (02:13:42.869)
I just feel like he was just fantastic here too. His lines, the earnestness and the heartbrokenness and pathos that he brought when he was finding that balance between being a caretaker for Bruce, but also being like you can't keep doing this to yourself. I don't know. It culminated so well. So I think those are my, for different reasons, I really enjoyed.

Eli Price (02:13:45.657)
Yeah.

Eli Price (02:13:49.371)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (02:14:02.936)
Yeah

Eli Price (02:14:09.695)
Yeah. Uh, it's funny, like, cause Michael Caine is like probably in this one, the least out of all three of them. And he was like, well, I guess if you're going to like not put me in it as much, I'm going to like knock it out of the park every time I'm on screen. Um, yeah, like the standout part for me is when he's first telling him about how like.

Zachary Lee (02:14:17.322)
Yeah, exactly.

Zachary Lee (02:14:24.009)
Absolutely knock it out. Exactly. Yeah. So good. Yeah.

Eli Price (02:14:34.915)
He used to dream while he was like on vacation in Florence that he would like look across and like see him and dude like I was like I was getting emotional like hearing Alfred talk to him because you really like at this point in the trilogy you know how much he cares for him and to hear him like express that just like. How much he wants like for Bruce as just like from.

Zachary Lee (02:14:37.657)
Yeah.

Eli Price (02:15:03.663)
from person to person, he just wants Bruce as a person to just be happy and have some peace and not be defined and overridden by fear and guilt and all these other things. But he actually legitimately, it's felt in the movie over the course of this trilogy how much he legitimately cares for him.

Zachary Lee (02:15:19.29)
Yeah.

Eli Price (02:15:32.427)
like as a person and like you don't get that um really like you don't get that much in superhero movies um or franchises like to the not to the degree that like Michael Caine pulls off this Alfred character I feel like.

Zachary Lee (02:15:32.517)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (02:15:44.771)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (02:15:50.801)
Yeah, well, and there's even that sense where I was, you know, like, and you look at his character, like, he supported Bruce because he knew there was an end date to being back, you know, like, he's like, it's not like he would, like, he had fun and was there to be there, was there for him, but like, there was almost, whether it was spoken or unspoken, like, you'll hang up the suit and cowl and be done with this, right? Like, that's, I'm willing to help you since we're like,

Eli Price (02:16:02.06)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (02:16:18.893)
agreed that's the end goal and that's the end game. And then it's like you see it when he when Bruce tries to go out there again and you know he's just like that like betrayal the sadden you know like his line of like you're not living you're just waiting for things to go bad again like there's just like that I'm just like oh like you really have you it's like you feel that for him too because he's like I want nothing more than for like you said like my you know

Eli Price (02:16:33.293)
Yeah.

Eli Price (02:16:37.612)
Yeah.

Eli Price (02:16:43.656)
Mm-hmm.

Zachary Lee (02:16:47.661)
surrogate son in a way to like be free of this and You're not free from it. You're still shackled by it and like that's I don't know There's like parental notes there as much as he is like the butler and the caretaker. So yeah, very touching

Eli Price (02:17:00.858)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. He's I mean, yeah, he's just phenomenal. I think for me, my like favorite performance is Anne Hathaway. Yeah. I think she's fantastic here. Like just like I have like written some things like no one had liked. Like he liked that she had like

Zachary Lee (02:17:08.017)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (02:17:12.525)
Yeah, I was about to ask. Yeah, yeah.

Eli Price (02:17:27.883)
an instinct for showmanship, which I think comes from being like having a, I think she has like a theater background, if I'm not mistaken. And he said like, she has like a dance like quality, I guess maybe in her movements. And, and I guess just like above all, like just her performance, she's doing so much like acting while acting, which is something I always like really appreciate.

Zachary Lee (02:17:30.075)
Hmm.

Zachary Lee (02:17:34.318)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (02:17:55.325)
Mm. Love that. Yeah.

Eli Price (02:17:58.811)
and how quickly she can switch. There's always a meta feeling when actors are doing that on screen. The one that comes to mind is where she's passing off Bruce's fingerprints and the police show up, and she switches on this helpless girl, save me, save me, and then as soon as they pass by, she switches back immediately to like,

Zachary Lee (02:18:19.422)
Exactly.

Eli Price (02:18:27.979)
I'm in control mode. There's a bit of a meta element to when you see actors acting as their characters. But I love that. And she does it so well. But even beyond that, the chemistry she has with Bruce, I think really like...

Zachary Lee (02:18:40.603)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (02:18:45.905)
Totally.

Zachary Lee (02:18:53.242)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (02:18:56.291)
is important for this film because you get the you get the sense that she um she is not like intimidated by Batman or Bruce um when he's Bruce and so like you kind of you get the feeling that Bruce uh like starts to kind of like be interested in her because like

Zachary Lee (02:19:08.558)
Yeah.

Eli Price (02:19:25.443)
She's like the one person that is not intimidated by him. I mean, other than like Bane, Bane isn't. But that's a whole different thing. But she's like the one person that he can actually just be fully Batman and fully Bruce. And she's just like totally not intimidated and totally like going toe to toe with her like sass.

Zachary Lee (02:19:29.687)
Yeah, yeah, that's right.

Zachary Lee (02:19:36.035)
different thing.

Zachary Lee (02:19:44.621)
Yeah.

Exactly. Yeah. Mm hmm. Yeah, her like her oops, when she's like caught. That was great. I thought like, that like you said that switch where she's like, Oh, I'm so sorry. Like you scared me to like, what you know, like, okay, you got me. I don't really care. I'll kick your cane and then leave. But you know, that sort of thing. Like, that was so well, that was well done.

Eli Price (02:19:58.126)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (02:20:04.836)
Yeah.

Eli Price (02:20:10.783)
Yeah. Oh, yeah. And yeah, she really does feel like which we can talk a little bit about it, I guess, is like, this one of the things that like, made me like, I don't know, I was very confused about within the plot of how like Miranda Tate and Bruce like, fell for each other, or if they did or like

Zachary Lee (02:20:37.716)
Yeah.

Eli Price (02:20:39.651)
That was totally like, and I remembered as I was watching, I was like, oh yeah, this happens and I've always been like, totally confused by this. Like, why are they all of a sudden like sleeping together? I guess, like, I just have never understood that. And there's like, there's no chemistry between them. Um, and it's like, there's so much chemistry between, uh, Bill and Hathaway that it's like, what?

Zachary Lee (02:20:48.037)
confused for this, yeah.

Zachary Lee (02:20:53.278)
Yeah, it.

Zachary Lee (02:21:00.037)
Let's...

Zachary Lee (02:21:07.274)
And that's the way here, yeah.

Eli Price (02:21:09.179)
What is happening here? I don't understand this at all.

Zachary Lee (02:21:11.913)
Yeah, I will say that I was because I was about to ask like what you thought of the Miranda Tate, you know, Talia, all global character because that's still the one part in watching it where I'm like, I can appreciate, you know, what was trying to be done there. But it's still like, it's just one of those things. I'm like, I don't like I'm like, I guess they both really have a passion for clean energy and saving the world, you know, like, I guess that's all it takes to fall in love. But I'm like,

Eli Price (02:21:17.4)
Yeah.

Eli Price (02:21:28.123)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (02:21:39.206)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (02:21:40.673)
I don't know, it's just like, and I guess I get the betrayal, you know, and like, it's supposed to be this like, the slow knife and the twist. And it's a cool way to get another, to bring it full circle with like, Ray Shah Ghul from the first movie. But it was like, that or it was a baffling part of the movie. And I can, I'm with you there. And it's not something having literally just, just watched it today. I'm like, I don't, I'm still not.

quite sure of what it was about. So yeah.

Eli Price (02:22:11.259)
Yeah, yeah, it's one of the parts of the movie that just like doesn't work for me I think the Miranda Tate character is fine like but the way that they use her is very strange like I Mean you have Marion Cotillard who's like a phenomenal actress And she like does really well with the role, but the way they use her is like so strange like

Zachary Lee (02:22:28.406)
Of course, yeah.

Eli Price (02:22:37.035)
she only gets to actually be Talia al Ghul for a minute and then she's dead. So you don't really get to see her be an awesome League of Shadows daughter of Ra's al Ghul kind of character. You don't get to see that. So it's like you can't even fathom that she can be like her father. There's no...

Zachary Lee (02:22:43.408)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (02:22:52.637)
Exactly the way.

Zachary Lee (02:23:03.722)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (02:23:06.751)
Yeah, I don't know. And it's almost like they just did it so that they could have like a cool twist in the in the plotting with like, you know, you have all the flashbacks and you think it's Bane. That's the kid and it turns out it's her. And it's like, okay, like, I guess you got me. You're right. I did think that Bane was the kid. But like, you've kind of just been telling me that it was the whole time and then

Zachary Lee (02:23:12.621)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Zachary Lee (02:23:17.85)
Right.

Zachary Lee (02:23:24.417)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (02:23:29.669)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (02:23:35.345)
But now it's...

Eli Price (02:23:35.711)
at here at the end, you're like, Oh, psych, it wasn't vain.

Zachary Lee (02:23:39.029)
we lie. Yeah. Well, and it's also like, you know, even Nolan was like, I think where, you know, that she was like, I, you know, I'm excited because Miranda is a new character that I'm able to play. And it's like, aha, it was not. And I'm like, interest, I don't know, like, even that I was like, okay, like, I guess she's not a real character. She, you know, she's like, not an original character. She's just someone from the comics that you, I don't know. So.

Eli Price (02:23:52.335)
Yeah.

Eli Price (02:23:57.467)
Hehehe

Eli Price (02:24:03.012)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (02:24:08.933)
There was just a lot of interesting, yeah.

Eli Price (02:24:11.863)
Yeah. Like I think the performance is fine. Like I don't think it's like she's doing anything like super special, but the performance is fine and she, I don't know. It's just like, I don't totally understand. If she was like just Miranda Tate, it would be fine. It's like, oh yeah, cool. Like, you know, she's wanting to get this clean energy project. It's kind of like a political aspect of the film. Like.

Zachary Lee (02:24:38.703)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (02:24:43.317)
you know, especially if they're trying to make it like, oh, she's trying to like, lessen the gap, like the wage gap, you know, between like the upper class and the lower class by doing this clean energy thing. Like there's some like interesting aspects to all that, but like, yeah, just the way they use her and make her Taliyah Ghul is like, I don't know.

The, I guess the aspect that I think is like interesting about it is how like she kind of mirrors Bruce's like motivations, like she wants to, you know, make the city suffer for what it did to her father. And Bruce wants to kind of like, you know, clean up the city for what it did to his parents. So there's that connection, I guess, there, but.

Zachary Lee (02:25:26.894)
Hmm.

Zachary Lee (02:25:35.505)
Interesting, yeah.

Eli Price (02:25:39.395)
But they don't really do much with, they don't do anything with that. It's just kind of like an idea floating out there that isn't really used. Um, but yeah, I don't know. And then like, um, I remember when it first came out, like I didn't like, uh, I was more like DC fanboy kind of like, uh, critique was like, I didn't like how they made like Bane the, the like.

Zachary Lee (02:25:41.882)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (02:25:45.594)
Yeah.

Eli Price (02:26:09.451)
I guess like the puppet in a sense. Yeah, cause like in the comics, he's like, he kind of like is a mastermind kind of character. He's like very rarely like working for someone else. If I'm, from what I know anyways, I'm sure there's someone out there that knows way more than me that's like, no, you're wrong. And, but yeah, you know.

Zachary Lee (02:26:13.07)
of the other

Zachary Lee (02:26:34.886)
You're a-

Eli Price (02:26:39.555)
But that doesn't really bother me anymore, because I'm like, yeah, it's comic book characters. They're changed and twisted and reused in different ways all the time. But yeah, back then I didn't like that.

Zachary Lee (02:26:53.705)
Yeah, no, I mean, well, it is interesting because he dies in a very unceremonious way, you know, it was just like very quick, which like, you know, I don't know, I guess it's like, we got to move on with the plot. But it was just like, oh, wait, like he Okay, I guess he's dead now. And we're just, it's now tall, you know, we're like focusing on Talia, even though like it was, you know, but they gave us a good fight Santhian. So I'll give him credit for that. You know, it's like there was an element of like, we got him beaten, but it was

Eli Price (02:26:59.319)
Yeah.

Eli Price (02:27:06.293)
Uh huh.

Eli Price (02:27:15.29)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (02:27:22.669)
I just remember seeing that I'm like, did he just die? Wait, what? Did that happen? So yeah, it was lots of interesting.

Eli Price (02:27:29.073)
Yeah.

Yeah, for sure. Do you like the Bane voice? Are you a fan?

Zachary Lee (02:27:37.565)
Yeah, it was, it's interesting to think about it now because it's like, you know, it's very, it's been memed so much, I think, just like talking about it. It is iconic. Yeah, yeah. So, I think probably similar critiques or issues from initial was like, I just had a hard time understanding what he was saying before. But I think once like, as time went on, I think there's an element like just

Eli Price (02:27:47.243)
Yeah, it's iconic. Yeah.

Zachary Lee (02:28:07.213)
It's almost, like you said, charismatic, a showman. I feel like very funny. And that comes across to, I think even his end words where he's like, well, you'll just have to imagine the fire. I don't know. His delivery of that was just, I thought was, yeah, it made me laugh. I thought, yeah. So I've grown to like it, I think. But I think initially it was just, it just was a little.

Eli Price (02:28:13.083)
Mm-hmm.

Zachary Lee (02:28:35.089)
I don't know. For me at least, it made sense why he sounded like that. I think like Bale's Batman voice, it's still funny to me to think like there's no like voice, you know, thing in the suit, I think, right? Yeah, he's just talking. Maybe there is. Maybe in the can, maybe they've explained it, but like, it's just funny to think like if there isn't, he's like, you know, the Bruce Wayne is making an active creative choice to sound like that every time.

Eli Price (02:28:39.94)
Right.

Eli Price (02:28:47.255)
Modulator, yeah. Maybe, I don't know. Maybe there is.

Eli Price (02:29:03.756)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (02:29:04.789)
But you know versus for Bain is like I sound like this but it's like I got my face messed up because I was in the pit so I can't really choose it so that inversion is

Eli Price (02:29:10.733)
right.

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. He, he meant he did like have some like voice inspirations. Like the big one was, um, this, uh, like bare knuckle fighter that was like a Welsh Irish boxer fighter, um, Bartley Gorman, I looked up some clips, um, to like, that were like comparing their voices and I was like, I mean, I guess I hear it, but like, it's not that. It's not that similar. So I don't know. It's.

Zachary Lee (02:29:26.753)
Yeah, I saw that. I thought that was so interesting. Yeah.

Zachary Lee (02:29:41.413)
Yeah.

Eli Price (02:29:43.391)
I guess he kind of took the intonations the guy uses and kind of maybe exaggerated it some for the voice. But yeah, I do love how he has so many like quippy one liners that are like very much like sound straight out of a comic book. And yeah, his dialogue and his one liners are the most like maybe the most comic book thing out of all these movies.

Zachary Lee (02:29:50.983)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (02:30:03.118)
Yeah, yeah.

Zachary Lee (02:30:12.593)
E.

Eli Price (02:30:13.359)
Um, which I actually like, um, every time he says, every time he says something, I'm like, oh yeah, that was awesome. You know.

Zachary Lee (02:30:15.801)
Right.

Zachary Lee (02:30:21.265)
That was awesome. Yeah. It's like when you were saying, and it's like with Tom Hardy too, because he's the one who's saying it, like how Drew was sharing in the Batman Begins one about Liam Neeson. And it's his delivery that really sells, even if the lines feel very comic book-y or cheesy in a way. And I feel like for Bane, you have my permission to die, right? Or I was molded in the dark. I was born in it. All those things. I'm like, yeah, like you said, epic.

Eli Price (02:30:39.353)
Right.

Eli Price (02:30:43.713)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Zachary Lee (02:30:51.297)
It's great.

Eli Price (02:30:51.711)
Epic. Well, yeah. And now that we're talking about it, having just like earlier talked about the kind of like, you want this like atmosphere of like a Homer epic and like the way he speaks is very like poetic, which obviously like the Iliad and the Odyssey are poetry and poetry epics. And so like, I guess maybe there's a sense in which like, it really fits that atmosphere of that like

Zachary Lee (02:31:06.683)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (02:31:21.123)
big epic, the way he talks in that kind of poetic, one-liner language, which I hadn't thought about before now. But yeah, maybe that's part of the choice there for that dialogue.

Zachary Lee (02:31:35.981)
Yeah, very true. Yeah, it's like, as you said, it's like, and I think it's what Nolan was getting at too, or even in their building the character, like a physical threat to Batman, which is what they wanted to do, but still very smart and very much the tactician and the thinker. And so that comes across in like the way that's happening. And it's interesting, because in the production notes, I was seeing how like, it's actually,

Eli Price (02:31:48.088)
Mm-hmm.

Zachary Lee (02:32:04.177)
Choreographing those scenes was not easy. Cause like you'd think it's like, oh, you're just like talking and fighting, but like those, that scene where he's like, it's like you have this heavy mask and apparatus and you're like staging these scenes where he's like saying some profound things and he's like crushing your skull. It's like, he's like, they were like, that actually took a lot of time to like get right and get the tone right. So I'm like, oh, that makes sense. I didn't think of that.

Eli Price (02:32:28.735)
Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. And Tom Hardy obviously is doing a lot of like eye acting. And it really is incredible. He really does like convey so much like passion and anger just through his eyes. Like yeah, Tom Hardy is fantastic, I think.

Zachary Lee (02:32:39.942)
Oh, through the roof, yeah.

Zachary Lee (02:32:54.201)
Yeah.

Eli Price (02:32:57.507)
doing a lot with a little as far as like being able to use this face.

Zachary Lee (02:33:02.201)
Oh, totally. Wow. Like you said, the inverted Batman mask. So it's like, really just your eyes there.

Eli Price (02:33:05.998)
Yeah.

Yeah. I guess we can like get into a little bit about like just some of the thematic elements of the movie. We're really deep in here already. But yeah, one of the things that like I did really like

Zachary Lee (02:33:27.99)
Yeah.

Eli Price (02:33:36.783)
of scrolling through my notes to find it. Yeah, it's just like the idea that this is like, this is Bruce's like story arc. So like, you know, it's like the wrapping up of his, like what you started with Batman Begins with his struggle and his personal like, because at the end of the day, like I even think I heard Jonathan Nolan say like, at the end of the day, this is a story arc about a

Zachary Lee (02:33:53.99)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (02:34:05.819)
particular character that being you know Bruce Wayne and not even Batman like but specifically Bruce Wayne and so like really like this movie would I don't know it would fail in a sense if it didn't like wrap up his story and I really think it does really well because like here like you start with Bruce having like kind of a lost sense of purpose because like

Zachary Lee (02:34:07.503)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (02:34:25.433)
Yeah.

Eli Price (02:34:35.823)
for a long time he kind of was addicted to being Batman and like he can't really be Batman both like physically and like just I guess maybe logistically with the Dent act and you know being on the run and everything. And yeah he you know he's

It's kind of like this journey throughout this movie of like rediscovering the will to like actually live and like have a life because he doesn't, he's not really living at the beginning of the movie. He's just like hold up. Like I mean and really like he's...

Zachary Lee (02:35:08.953)
Yeah.

Eli Price (02:35:22.723)
Like I guess like the pit is like very much a metaphor for that. Uh, very like, I guess obvious metaphor, but effective nonetheless. Um, in that, like at the beginning of the movie, he might as well be in a pit. Like, like he's not out in the world. He's not doing anything of use. Either as Bruce or as Batman. And so like, he, he kind of like, even before he's actually in the pit.

Zachary Lee (02:35:38.863)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (02:35:52.291)
like he is like in a metaphorical pit of just like seclusion and like just, I guess maybe purposelessness. Um, and so yeah, this, uh, I think I'd read somewhere too, that like, no one, it's like this, uh,

inverse of like the typical story structure, like rise and fall story structure where instead it's a fall and rise story structure. Yeah. Um, but yeah, and then, you know, like he, he kind of like comes to terms with all that and like realizes that.

Zachary Lee (02:36:23.808)
Yeah, there we go, exactly.

Eli Price (02:36:38.007)
You know, Alfred was right. Like he, and even in Batman Begins, I wanna say there's like a line that Alfred says where like he kind of hints that like, I was kind of hoping you wouldn't come back. You know, that sort of thing. And like here you get the full like full circle of that. Like he realizes like, oh yeah, if I want to move on and be free from like,

Zachary Lee (02:36:53.55)
Mm, yeah.

Eli Price (02:37:08.847)
all these things that are weighing me down as a person, I have to leave this place. And yeah, it's an interesting story arc.

Eli Price (02:37:23.451)
I don't know, did you have any thoughts on how they completed that with this movie?

Zachary Lee (02:37:25.625)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (02:37:29.097)
Yeah, I mean, I love the points that you're bringing up about, you know, the like, completing it right, you know, fall and rise those elements, because in terms of completion, I, I think one of those that idea of like, when Alfred said, you know, sometimes the pit sends something back up, you know, and like, obviously, throughout the film, there are these, you know, whether it's overt or, you know, implicit, but like themes of rebirth and death and

Eli Price (02:37:48.589)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (02:37:57.269)
a fire that's cleansing, a fire that's destructive and rising from the ash. I mean, you know, it's all served there. But I think I was really struck with this idea of like, you know, Talia and Bane, Bruce, they all in some way escaped the pit, you know, and there's this idea of like, there's no guarantee that when you leave, you'll be different, you know, like there is like and there's this sense of like you are being saved and reborn.

Eli Price (02:38:04.891)
Mm-hmm.

Zachary Lee (02:38:27.313)
but what are you being reborn into? And it makes me appreciate the Talia character more, even if I feel like it's underwritten, because I can understand the tension that Bruce, the sadness that Bruce feels where he's like, we could have, like you were the person I thought maybe we could have had a life together, we were aligned on these same goals, and I just find it interesting that she could have been different. She could have chosen to be the altruistic and caring.

Eli Price (02:38:49.188)
Mm-hmm.

Zachary Lee (02:38:57.457)
person that she, you know, but it's like coming out of the pit. It's like she's chosen instead to punish the city, you know, and that's like such choice that she's made. She's living up the consequences of that. And I like how for Bruce, there's a sense like there's no guarantee that when you go up, you're going to be the same person that you want to be. Like there's an element to our own redemption and our work, like just because we go through something that's traumatic and hard and painful doesn't always mean that like.

Eli Price (02:39:04.065)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (02:39:24.003)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (02:39:26.925)
will emerge better from it, you know? There's like, sometimes that's there, but it's what you choose to do with those ingredients of what you've done and all that. So I just, I really like that idea and like how there's both what you choose to do with your suffering and like how you wanna mold it. And then the way suffering just changes you already, you know, and you can't sometimes control those parts of you, Warren. I think...

Eli Price (02:39:29.077)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (02:39:38.936)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (02:39:56.425)
in Bruce's story, he kind of carries both of those strands with this character.

Eli Price (02:40:04.791)
Yeah, yeah, and that makes me think to just, you know, he...

Yeah, it's interesting because he comes out and he is angry. He says, I'm not afraid, I'm angry. But it is like what he still is choosing a way to use that anger. Like he has a choice in how he uses that emotion because like, you know,

Zachary Lee (02:40:24.957)
Right. I'm angry.

Eli Price (02:40:41.671)
Anger in and of itself is not a bad thing. It's it's about what you do with it. And it does make me think about, you know, yeah, the Talia character. Could have made a different choice and have been a different person. And I don't know, it's yeah, that's an interesting thought for sure. That idea of like our choices.

Zachary Lee (02:40:47.057)
What exactly?

Eli Price (02:41:11.611)
kind of make us who we are. But also when you were saying that, it made me think too about like the, you know, we, me and you are both like, we're both thinking a lot of times in Christian terms. And so like in Christianity, there's this idea of like, the sins of previous generations like following you and like.

Zachary Lee (02:41:29.497)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (02:41:38.267)
following the next generation and affecting the next generation. And there is that sense of like, there's certain like, sins of your father's generation that like, you have a choice of whether you're going to break that or not. So that, that doesn't follow like the generation following you. And you know, it's like that idea of

Zachary Lee (02:42:01.102)
Yeah.

Eli Price (02:42:06.595)
They're both, in a sense, like children of Ra's al Ghul. But, you know, one literally and one, I guess, like, I guess, like symbolically, you know, he's more of like a minty of him than a child. But, but in a sense, they're both children of Ra's al Ghul. One is like living under the sin of her father.

Zachary Lee (02:42:10.683)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (02:42:24.173)
of him. Yeah.

Eli Price (02:42:33.791)
and one is choosing to kind of break that, sin, not giving, not crossing those lines that the generation before him was wanting to cross sort of thing. So I think that idea is there too, which like ties in to what you were saying.

Zachary Lee (02:42:38.453)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (02:42:47.929)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (02:42:54.805)
Yeah. And it's similar to how, you know, nothing, what's hidden, as you're saying, like moving under the shadow of something, like it won't stay there forever, like quite literally, you know, like the underbelly coming out to the surface. And I just love the way how Nolan handled the... And, you know, this is of course in great part due to Gary Oldman's, the way he plays Jim Borden, but that, like, you know, like, as we've talked about, like...

Eli Price (02:43:21.017)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (02:43:24.485)
Gotham is, like, Bruce did get his wish in a way, you know? Like Gotham is, you know, organized crime is down and, you know, James has a lineup, like we'll be chasing overdue library books or something like that, right? But it's like, it's such a fragile and dishonest piece, you know, and it's like, I just, I like how the film showed like Batman in his moment of compassion and care for the city at the end of the dark night.

Eli Price (02:43:29.007)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (02:43:37.283)
Yeah.

Eli Price (02:43:43.458)
Mm-hmm.

Zachary Lee (02:43:53.421)
you know, thinks like a lie is what Gotham needs right now. You know, that's what it's gonna take to survive. And, you know, and just seeing like in the end, actually, that's not what, you know, like the truth is pain. And it's, you know, same old like time, you know, old or like familiar truths, but just like that idea of like things built on those lies, like how strong a foundation are they? And, you know, how does that just only perpetuate its own harm and its own-

Eli Price (02:44:17.807)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (02:44:23.501)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (02:44:23.769)
it needs to be that box off in time, I think, as Talia says at the end in a way, you know, but like, it didn't actually get to the root of the issue. And so I think even just that idea of like, what you build your life on, you know, the foundation of all those sorts of things like that, that matters a lot, too. So I thought the exploration of the fallout of Batman's choice, Bruce's choice was a cool theme that stood out.

Eli Price (02:44:54.927)
Yeah, yeah, for sure. And then like to like the, you know, the ramifications of like that underlying fear, because there is like you, there is that underlying fear in Gotham. And really like it's, when you saw, I mean like they've essentially built like a police state, like, and you know, when you build a police state, like there's,

Zachary Lee (02:45:17.369)
Yep.

Eli Price (02:45:22.811)
peace in one sense, but also like there's this kind of like rumbling of like discontent underneath because no, you know, it's a, it's a facade of peace really, because people aren't living peacefully in reality. They're living like fearfully, they're living in fear. And so like when that fear finally like

Zachary Lee (02:45:39.61)
Totally.

Eli Price (02:45:51.435)
you know, takes over the society, they turn to authoritarianism, which is like, I don't know, maybe a little too timely for today. But but yeah, all that is all that sort of like epic political, like romanticism way of like

Zachary Lee (02:46:02.905)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (02:46:06.99)
Dang.

Eli Price (02:46:21.555)
examining societies is definitely like underneath the surface of this movie, like not deep underneath the surface, like sometimes it's like it comes out like Bane from the sewer and is like blatant in your face, but yeah, it's definitely all there.

Zachary Lee (02:46:28.517)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (02:46:32.485)
there exactly yeah

Zachary Lee (02:46:41.422)
Yeah.

Eli Price (02:46:44.379)
Uh, yeah. Uh, and then really like, you know, I'm trying to like, make sure I don't miss anything that I had, cause, uh, really like the, the cat, like sticking on that idea of like the political things. Um, one of the things we haven't talked about is like, really like this movie has capitalism itself, like under scrutiny. Um,

Zachary Lee (02:47:12.827)
Hmm.

Eli Price (02:47:13.807)
Oh, maybe like people listening to this, like out of the context of when this movie came out, um, maybe you have forgotten, but like it's written. This movie was written like in the context, um, like, or like against the background of the financial collapse of 2008. Um, and so like that's when they started writing this. And so like, that's gotta be in the back of your, your mind. Like Nolan always says, like, I think I wrote.

Zachary Lee (02:47:32.938)
Ah, okay.

Zachary Lee (02:47:40.826)
Your mind.

Eli Price (02:47:43.699)
a quote where he says like the Batman films are not political acts. Like Nolan is very pretty adamant on like, I'm not trying to make political statements on these movies, but at the same time, like you're a creator and you're creating out of what's on your mind. And so like those things naturally seep in. And so, yeah, it's written with that background of that financial collapse of 2008. And then to like.

Zachary Lee (02:47:51.15)
rain.

Zachary Lee (02:48:01.944)
Exactly.

Eli Price (02:48:12.647)
kind of like a strange thing was a very like very strange coincidence is that Bane's like rate of Wall Street parallels Occupy Wall Street which was going on while they were filming it and so like yeah so like you obviously like the movie the screenplay is already written so that's already like in the

Zachary Lee (02:48:26.67)
Mmm.

Oh really? That's interesting.

Zachary Lee (02:48:39.374)
Right.

Eli Price (02:48:41.483)
Him rating wall street, um, this kind of like, uh, this kind of like financial and like social, um, like social, like the gap, the, like the way the gap, um, of the social classes and stuff is like in the screenplay already, but also like being played out literally. Nolan said, um, he said we literally had to schedule around them talking about occupy wall street.

Zachary Lee (02:48:43.299)
Right.

Zachary Lee (02:48:49.39)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (02:49:10.533)
So did you, yeah.

Eli Price (02:49:10.951)
So they're shooting, they're shooting like those wall street scenes in New York and they're having to like work around the protests with their scheduling. Um, which is wild that it, that it, it parallels that like very real. Thing going on. Um, like a huge coincidence. Um, uh, yeah, yeah. I mean, there's literally like Occupy Wall Street protests going on.

Zachary Lee (02:49:23.184)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (02:49:26.977)
Yeah, that's interesting.

Eli Price (02:49:40.719)
while they're shooting this movie. Which is wild, you know?

Zachary Lee (02:49:43.853)
What a time. Yeah, that's crazy. I had completely missed that context for when he was filming. So that's really interesting. I'm looking up more info on it now.

Eli Price (02:49:50.466)
Yeah.

Eli Price (02:49:54.283)
Yeah, for sure. And it's one of those things where like, when you examine it in its context, like, it speaks like in a very like real and interesting way, but also like there's a timelessness to it because that idea of like, when you build a society this way, like the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.

Zachary Lee (02:50:20.993)
Yep.

Eli Price (02:50:23.879)
very real kind of a timeless idea. Um, and we've seen it like through history and when civilizations begin to turn to this sort of civilization, like the rich get richer and the poor get poorer, like it's kind of like a cyclical thing, um, that we, you know, can just like go back through history and see over and over again. Um, and, uh, yeah.

Zachary Lee (02:50:48.367)
Yeah.

Eli Price (02:50:51.895)
I mean, it's definitely like an interesting part of the movie, for sure, that I think is worth thinking about as you're thinking about it. Yeah. I've mentioned a couple. Do you have any like nitpicks about this movie? I know it's like you love this one. So maybe you don't want to like nitpick it a whole lot. But

Zachary Lee (02:51:16.235)
Yeah.

No, no, honestly, I mean, it's funny because I was thinking of when I was listening to the retro or the overview that you did for the start of the series about Christopher Nolan, even though this isn't non-linear, I will just admit, maybe just me like from a comprehension level, I had a hard time understanding just some of the basic plot points of this movie. Like, it really is like, for example, in the beginning when like

Eli Price (02:51:28.954)
Uh huh.

Eli Price (02:51:43.002)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (02:51:47.213)
So maybe that's not a nitpick of the film, that's just me, but I'm curious how some of these scenes played out for you. I think when Bane's transferring the blood from one dead guy to the other dead guy, I'm like, I don't know what's going on here. I think I'm like, Bane going to the stock exchange building, that was cool, but I think it clicked later for me to like, oh, it's like bankrupting Bruce Wright. I don't know. So there's just different parts where it just wasn't.

Eli Price (02:51:58.106)
Yeah.

Ha ha.

Eli Price (02:52:09.828)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Zachary Lee (02:52:17.765)
quite as, it was hard for me to just understand sometimes narratively what was going on, but one thing that may just be me, but I'm curious how that played out for you. And then I think maybe it's funny because the film's already fairly long, like two hours and 40 something, nearly three, but ironically or interestingly, I felt like maybe it was just the pacing, but like, I know Batman's gonna rise up and go out,

Eli Price (02:52:23.257)
Yeah.

Eli Price (02:52:33.005)
Oh yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Zachary Lee (02:52:47.521)
It just still felt like a very fairly condensed timeline. I don't know. Like it's almost like he was there and then you get the Liam Neeson cameo. He like tries to climb. He doesn't, you know, and like, and I get like it's like five months. So it's like a long time and the other characters are doing stuff, but that part still felt a little rushed to me. But I'm also, once again, it's like, I respect the ambition of what you're trying to do. And like, in a way it's like, would I have liked it if like that was even.

Eli Price (02:52:58.808)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (02:53:03.704)
Right.

Eli Price (02:53:11.44)
Mm-hmm.

Zachary Lee (02:53:16.981)
and they made the movie longer. I don't know, maybe not. So maybe it's just like, the way it's broken down. But I'd say those are my main, it's just like some of the pacing of Bruce's redemption arc a bit, and then the narrative plot points. But yeah, I don't know if any of those you share, or maybe you have different.

Eli Price (02:53:20.164)
Yeah.

Eli Price (02:53:32.292)
Yeah.

Eli Price (02:53:36.247)
Yeah, it no that it definitely that definitely rings true because um for me like so like uh, maybe not necessarily like the blood transfusion because I was like I was watching and I was like, okay, I get what they're doing. They're like they want to make Or maybe it is one of those things where like it clicks later like the wall street thing because you're like why are they here again? Like what are they doing?

Zachary Lee (02:53:53.633)
Yeah, it looked like someone.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Eli Price (02:54:02.999)
And then later you're like, Oh, they put his fingerprints on here. But then like, then you're kind of like, you're going backwards in the movie where you should be like in the moment. And it's, it's so odd because usually Christopher Nolan is so precise about like the structures of his movies. And this feels like it's kind of, I don't know it, I haven't seen Tenet since I saw it in theaters. And so like.

Zachary Lee (02:54:08.129)
Yeah, that too. I was like, what? Yep, yep. In the moment, yeah.

Eli Price (02:54:31.607)
I'll be interested to rewatch that because it feels similar to this in a way and that like that for some reason that precision of like the plot structure and like cluing you into exactly what you need when you need it that no one is so good at is some for some reason missing in this movie. And it

Zachary Lee (02:54:56.005)
Yeah.

Eli Price (02:54:58.783)
My memory of seeing Tenet in theaters was similar. But again, I'm looking forward to revisiting it for this series. And so, yeah, it's definitely like... I think part of it is just like the plot is so big. They're trying to do so much. They're trying to build up the persona of Bane. They're trying to work in this...

Zachary Lee (02:55:03.066)
Oh, yeah.

Zachary Lee (02:55:08.493)
Yeah, for the series, yeah.

Zachary Lee (02:55:20.474)
Yeah.

Eli Price (02:55:29.099)
Gordon Levitt character this that's like the Robin stand-in they've got catwoman that pops in and out and you try to like build a little bit of backstory on her and Miranda Tate who is she why is she important and it's like they're doing so much I almost wonder if this should have been like the movie ends like Cuts with Bane breaking Batman's back

Zachary Lee (02:55:33.189)
Mm-hmm.

Zachary Lee (02:55:45.137)
See you.

Zachary Lee (02:55:58.372)
Hmm.

Eli Price (02:55:59.059)
And then there's like a part two, which would have been like cliche and no one never would have done this if he had to make two of them. Uh, so like, in a sense, in a sense, I'm like, I'll take what I, what I got, you know, but also, but that does feel like a perfect breaking point for like a part one, part two, like the movie and like it, it's very much like.

Zachary Lee (02:56:01.125)
for two.

Zachary Lee (02:56:09.79)
Yeah, right.

Zachary Lee (02:56:13.453)
What I got, yeah, yeah. But no, but I mean, it's a fair point to think about, you know, where you could expand it. Totally.

Eli Price (02:56:25.291)
Infinity War in-game feeling of like, oh no, like Batman's back is broken. What's gonna happen now? And then the next movie Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, and that you know, the second part is, you know the rise part of Batman of Yeah of the rises part of the title, you know But yeah, but you know, that's just like wishful thinking

Zachary Lee (02:56:28.162)
Right.

Yeah, your empire strikes back moment, you know?

Zachary Lee (02:56:41.655)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (02:56:48.188)
The title, yeah.

Eli Price (02:56:54.863)
But yeah, you know, you mentioned enjoying the John Blake character and I was kind of mixed on him. Like there's moments where I like him, but there's also like, I don't understand him as a character and like why he does certain things the way he does. Like, so it bothered me that like...

Zachary Lee (02:57:03.162)
Mmm.

Zachary Lee (02:57:16.723)
Yeah.

Eli Price (02:57:23.203)
He's all of a sudden he's in Bruce Wayne's house and he's like, I know you're Batman. Here's how I know you're Batman. Cause I saw your face when I was a orphan. And I was like, wait, but that doesn't mean you know he's Batman. That just means you know, like that he was a orphan then has like some serious deep seated issues. Like why does that mean he's Batman? So I was like, I'm totally lost on that. And it like, as I was watching that, it kind of took me out of the movie. I was like, wait.

Zachary Lee (02:57:36.228)
Right, right.

Zachary Lee (02:57:41.777)
You're right. Right.

Eli Price (02:57:52.759)
Wait, where's the connection point to why you know he's Batman? And then like, so he knows he's Batman and he knows like, he seems to know he took the fall for Harvey Dent. But then when like Bane reads the, um, you know, Gordon's, um, speech, uh, then like, John Blake is like mad at Gordon and you're like, but I thought you knew all of this stuff, like.

Zachary Lee (02:57:54.68)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (02:58:09.555)
Mmm.

Zachary Lee (02:58:19.269)
Oh, right, right. Dang. OK, for some reason, that did not click for me, seeing it. So that, OK, I see what you're saying.

Eli Price (02:58:19.279)
Shouldn't you have been mad at him this whole time? Like, like, yeah. And, but maybe it's like, he didn't know that Gordon was in on it. And so now he's mad at Gordon because he's finding out he was in on it. I don't know. But you would think if he's a good enough, like detective to figure out who Batman is, he would figure out that Gordon was like.

Zachary Lee (02:58:32.675)
it on it sure.

Zachary Lee (02:58:42.191)
Right.

Eli Price (02:58:46.247)
I mean, everyone knows Gordon is collaborating with Batman, so it's not like even a hidden thing. Yeah, all that stuff is just like plot points that really bothered me. It's not really like the performance or the idea of the... I like the idea of the character and like, you know, there's some cheesy stuff about it that I like, like where he like, you know, shoots the guy and then throws the gun away. It's like kind of representative of him realizing like, I can't do...

Zachary Lee (02:58:49.453)
Right, exactly.

Eli Price (02:59:14.895)
There's like moments of him realizing like, I can't be a cop. Um, like the moment with the bridge where he's trying to get the kids across and they're like, he's like cops or two. They have to follow too many rules. So like, I liked like that cheesy stuff of like, Oh, like this is his road to Robin. It's kind of like corny, but also like, Oh, like that's kind of like a fun, like way to do this, like his journey to.

Zachary Lee (02:59:21.979)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (02:59:34.427)
You ready?

Eli Price (02:59:44.279)
uh, you know, ending up in the Batcave at the end. Um, but yeah. Um, my, my only other nitpick is like, why is there a TV in the pit?

Zachary Lee (02:59:46.933)
Right.

Zachary Lee (02:59:50.385)
Thanks for watching!

Zachary Lee (02:59:55.369)
Yeah, that is so true. That's one of those things when you're watching it, you're like, oh, like, this is a really dramatic moment. He's seeing the help that the people try to help gun, you know, hung and then you're like, wait, what's this? Yeah, so true. So true.

Eli Price (02:59:59.587)
Uh...

Eli Price (03:00:04.502)
Yeah.

Eli Price (03:00:08.761)
Yeah.

Yeah, and then like and then he can just turn it off like Because there's a moment. Oh, yeah, he threw the thing at it. That's what he did Yeah

Zachary Lee (03:00:16.437)
Right by throwing yeah. Yeah. But no, but still it's just like, I don't know, I guess he's like, Bane's like you want I want you to see the downfall step by step, you know, weep, watching weep. Yeah, like how is this?

Eli Price (03:00:27.799)
Yeah, like I get why it's there, but I'm like.

Eli Price (03:00:36.563)
But um, but yeah, that that's a that's probably the most trivial of all my nitpicks I already talked about the Talia stuff But yeah Yeah, that ending is I Like, you know the way it ends, you know, it's Which actually I think I mentioned this I can't I think I mentioned it in the past episode Where like he talks about? He actually dreamed

Zachary Lee (03:00:43.849)
Right.

Eli Price (03:01:05.731)
of the ending of the Batman trilogy, like a long time ago. Cause it was in like my research for maybe Inception or something, or maybe like the general chapters of the books I'm reading. Cause like dreams are like very interesting to him. And that's what like sparked him to wanna make a movie like Inception.

Zachary Lee (03:01:10.173)
Oh really?

Zachary Lee (03:01:33.135)
Yeah.

Eli Price (03:01:34.719)
And like he talked about like how a lot of his ideas will come from like dreams he has. And he, that was one of them was like, he actually like dreamed of this ending sequence of the Batman story where like now someone else, it's kind of like that idea that like anybody can be Batman. And it's like someone else taking on the mantle of, of being Batman and Bruce moving on, like he dream.

Zachary Lee (03:01:56.045)
Yeah, yeah.

Zachary Lee (03:02:01.489)
I hope you made it.

Eli Price (03:02:04.579)
like he had that in a dream. And so he got to like actually use it here, which I think is kind of cool. Yeah, I do like, I like that. I think it's a cool way to end it. And it is like, Nolan says, you know, there's, you know, when you make a superhero movie and you end it like that, people are like, oh, they're gonna make Robin movie or whatever. And Nolan's like, no, it's just like a thematic gesture. It's just like,

Zachary Lee (03:02:06.97)
Interesting.

Love that. Yeah.

Zachary Lee (03:02:33.515)
Totally.

Eli Price (03:02:34.135)
showing you that idea that like, oh, it's a Batman is a symbol, anybody can be Batman sort of thing. And yeah, I really like, I actually like really like the happy ending for Bruce, like, I feel like it's pretty well earned and like, and having Alfred be a part of that shot, like kind of actual actualizing his dream.

Zachary Lee (03:02:51.937)
Yeah.

Eli Price (03:03:03.863)
Bruce I don't know to me it just felt like very like sweet Like light-hearted and a sweet way to end his character But yeah, what did you think about the ending?

Zachary Lee (03:03:05.21)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (03:03:20.141)
No, I think I was worried. So you know how in Inception, where like that ending, where like the top spinning and you're like, wait, does it end in like the camera cuts? So like, I think I was worried or waiting. Like, is this gonna be like Alfred, you know, looks up, he sees it, he looks down, looks up and they're gone, you know, he's like just dreaming, you know, so I was like, because I could see Nolan being like, kind of like pulling a like, not to be mean, but just like.

Eli Price (03:03:28.324)
Uh-huh.

Eli Price (03:03:41.711)
Oh yeah.

Eli Price (03:03:45.849)
Oh yeah, for sure.

Zachary Lee (03:03:51.105)
It's a dream, you know, it's like that's the big sadness is like he didn't get to see it. Exactly, right? But I'm like, I love that. Yeah, I like, I think when it's like, okay, wait, like the camera's not moving. This looks like it's actually happening. And it's not like Alfred's not hallucinating this. I was like, I love that. It was funny. Cause I feel like I've seen a meme recently where there's this joke where Selena's like, Bruce, why do we keep coming to this cafe day after day?

Eli Price (03:03:53.751)
and no one move.

Eli Price (03:04:07.257)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (03:04:18.773)
And Bruce is like, just wait, I need to, I'm waiting for one guy to show up, then we can go to a different cafe. So I just, it just found it funny to think like, what if they like would straight up go there, like for the longest time, like waiting for Alfred, like in that exact table, waiting for Alfred to show up, and he just never did until then. So that's very fun.

Eli Price (03:04:24.809)
Yeah.

Eli Price (03:04:34.754)
Uh-huh.

Yeah. And it took maybe it even like he saw Alfred several times, but it took it took several times for him to be at just the right table. Yeah. And they're like, crap.

Zachary Lee (03:04:45.297)
for him to be there. Right, like they started off behind him or farther away, you know, they're like, we gotta like come early next time to book the reservation, you know, for this. So that stuff was all, that was just recent that I thought was funny and like, just made me like the ending a lot. But you're to your point though, it is funny because I did, I thought it just ended in a very epic way of, you know, James Get, like being able to stand on the platform and there's this like.

Eli Price (03:04:59.327)
Yeah, yeah for sure.

Eli Price (03:05:12.165)
Mm-hmm.

Zachary Lee (03:05:13.237)
implication of who what if he's you know is he gonna do the same thing as Bruce did be the next Batman all that um but it is funny because I remember I think I watched it with my uncle and he was also thinking like wait are they gonna do a robin move and I was like I don't think so but it's a cool like you said a gesture that was there so that was all really fun and just like yeah it just me it just it kind of like uplifts you know you're just like it's there and like

Eli Price (03:05:18.884)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (03:05:33.385)
Uh-huh.

Yeah.

Eli Price (03:05:40.336)
Hmm?

Zachary Lee (03:05:42.733)
You know, there's something to look forward to, even if that doesn't, not like a movie to look forward to, but it's like, it's a rising action that ends it on.

Eli Price (03:05:53.987)
Yeah, for sure. Yeah, the Jonathan Nolan quote I have about just the way they ended it was, he said, I think what we endeavored to do was not the complete story of Batman, but our complete story of this character. And like I said, I think they really did do a complete three-act structure.

Zachary Lee (03:06:12.785)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (03:06:21.971)
over the course of three movies for this character in the beginning, his like heyday and then his kind of like fall to rise kind of sequence at the end. Yeah, I really like it. The ending for sure. I did have a final takeaway just about Bruce. Like a fight, you know.

A lot of people that listen probably know I like to do like the final thought of the of the episode But yeah, my final thought for this was just thinking about how like Bruce Has to like come to terms with his fear and accept it so that it doesn't like rule over him anymore and kind of how like Just that idea of like expressing your fear is like the way that you

Zachary Lee (03:06:56.703)
Yeah.

Eli Price (03:07:18.455)
are able to like get out of it and rise out of it, expressing it, dealing with it. And, you know, it kind of like his rise from that pit kind of mirrors his rise out of the well when he was a kid. I think that's like pretty intentional, probably in the storytelling. And I think there is a flashback even to that moment at some point in the film.

Zachary Lee (03:07:37.295)
Yeah.

Eli Price (03:07:49.067)
Um of his dad like pulling him out of the pit Uh out of the well, I mean as a kid um and uh, yeah just thinking about that idea and for one like a takeaway is kind of like just like doing the same in our lives like making sure that like we are expressing our fears and like vocalizing them and

Zachary Lee (03:07:55.753)
Yeah.

Eli Price (03:08:19.035)
talking about them with people like so that they don't rule over us and control like how we live. But also like I was reading Elijah Davidson's little like kind of devotional book about Nolan's movies and for this movie he kind of was taking that idea and saying like can this like

Zachary Lee (03:08:23.407)
Yeah.

Eli Price (03:08:49.787)
on the scale of a whole society. And I was like, oh, that's a really interesting thought. I was like, I'm gonna put that in my final thoughts section. I'm gonna steal that. Which he was, Elijah Davidson came on last episode for Inception. So it was really cool to have him on. And so yeah, I don't feel too bad about stealing his thought because

Zachary Lee (03:08:52.677)
Mmm.

Zachary Lee (03:09:02.607)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (03:09:16.013)
No, no, that's great.

Eli Price (03:09:18.191)
Cause I've had him on as a guest, but, um, uh, but yeah, it, it just made me think about like, man, can a society express fear and make it vocalized and then be able to rise out of the, the fear that it's living in on that scale. Um, and like, I don't know, like part of me is like, no, just like playing like.

Zachary Lee (03:09:20.579)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (03:09:38.522)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (03:09:46.815)
You're like, yep, let me keep it real. Not really.

Eli Price (03:09:47.605)
No, not really.

But then like the kind of like more hopeful side of me, like, uh, it's like, well, like, you know, part of what, like, I personally believe as a Christian is that actually will happen one day at, you know, um, like the, the hope of, you know, heaven meeting earth and like fears, not ruling over people.

And as this like world, like society wide, humankind wide, like idea of like fear no longer rules us, we're living like free from that. So I don't know, it's just like, it's an interesting thing to think about, like how can that apply to like actuality today? Like it really just has to happen mostly on the individual level, I think. But.

I don't know, it's interesting to think about. Did you have any thoughts on that?

Zachary Lee (03:10:53.773)
No, I mean, I think like, yeah, like the collective nature of, I like what Elijah was saying, and kind of what you were saying too, like the collective nature of fear, and is there space to make that known, and what redemption and restoration looks like on that, like a public level of that. And I think it's made me think a lot too about, you know, as we discussed, like that imagery of like a fire and it being destructive and...

Eli Price (03:11:23.003)
Hmm.

Zachary Lee (03:11:24.001)
also hopefully can be rebuilding. And so I am just trying to think like, you know, of the system, like I think it interesting when Gordon's like, you know, one of the other aspects of like why like James, you know, the Robin character was the whole like, he's like, I can't stay in the police force, you know? And like, there's this sense of like, how much of something needs to be destroyed in order for it to be.

fixed, you know, there's like the even like the biblical, biblical idea of apocalypse, right? Of how like it's not just destruction, but it's the unveiling of something new. It's destroying the old to bring in the new. And so how much of, even the Batman films, these have been about like the patterns of destruction and, you know, restoration. And so all of that was really interesting. And I think it just made me think a lot about like,

Eli Price (03:11:54.756)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (03:12:16.315)
Mm-hmm.

Zachary Lee (03:12:22.737)
what role does the chaos and order have in the systems that are in our world today and our rhythms? And yeah, I don't know. I feel like I like how it doesn't end, the film doesn't give you necessarily a direct answer to that even though it stabilizes and there's peace, you have these little moments where it's like, it's not like.

Eli Price (03:12:33.976)
Yeah.

Eli Price (03:12:44.907)
Right, it doesn't, yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Zachary Lee (03:12:51.153)
crime's gone, it's not like the people in power are still, are like now all of a sudden not getting more powerful. Like these things remain. So like what does change actually look like there? So.

Eli Price (03:13:02.419)
Yeah, yeah, there's still like loose ends for sure but that's just like That I guess that's another way where it's grounded in reality. Like the reality is like There's not like some like glorious happy ending Like there is in a sense for like the character, which is what they were focused on, but it's not like everything's just fixed now But yeah, it's interesting but

Zachary Lee (03:13:05.773)
Mm-hmm. Totally.

Eli Price (03:13:31.799)
Yeah, I think that pretty much wraps up our talk on the Dark Knight Rises. I think we'll end up rivaling the runtime for...

Zachary Lee (03:13:39.246)
I love that.

I was looking at that. Yeah. You know, one minute of analysis per minute of the film. That's how you want to go for it. Yeah.

Eli Price (03:13:48.671)
Yeah, yeah, there you go. Uh, that's, that was, uh, that was our goal that w that we didn't start with, but we're going to retroactively apply that now to, um, to our talk.

Zachary Lee (03:14:00.277)
Exactly. Nonlinear timelines, man, that's how we're going at it.

Eli Price (03:14:03.711)
Yeah. Yeah, so this is, I think you already like, maybe like spoil alerted your, your ranking for this. But yeah, so this is your favorite, Nolan. Is that, is that right?

Zachary Lee (03:14:14.245)
Oh, sorry.

Zachary Lee (03:14:20.297)
Ooh, you know, I will admit, I haven't actually not seen one of, I'd say favorite of the trilogy. I think I have not seen all of Nolan's films. So I think like Insomnia and Following are the two I haven't seen if I'm, I think I've seen everything else. So yeah, but I think of Nolan's films, I'd probably say, ah, that's tough. I don't know.

Eli Price (03:14:23.084)
or one of your one of yours.

Eli Price (03:14:28.321)
Okay, yeah.

Eli Price (03:14:33.039)
That's fair.

Zachary Lee (03:14:50.457)
Like I think prestige has, the prestige has such like a place in my heart, I think, from just being, you know, mind blown when I watched it the first time. So I feel like that my answer is still there, but I don't know, listening through the podcast has been great because I feel like it's either it's going to give me an opportunity, an excuse to watch the ones I've missed to like, you know, relisten or, you know, or to, to learn about it or, you know, watch the one, watch this filmography again.

Eli Price (03:14:55.309)
Yeah.

Eli Price (03:15:13.827)
Yeah.

Eli Price (03:15:19.867)
Mm-hmm.

Zachary Lee (03:15:21.377)
with the new insights that you share. So you and the guests share, so yeah. Good, so.

Eli Price (03:15:26.663)
Yeah, it's interesting. So even like, I think you having this as your favorite of the trilogy is definitely a hot take. Like for most people, including me, it's my least favorite of the trilogy. But that's not to say I don't like it. Like I think I have it rated like on Letterboxd, I think I have it like a three and a half star.

Zachary Lee (03:15:38.373)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (03:15:42.014)
Oh, it is.

Zachary Lee (03:15:52.77)
A three and a half, yeah.

Eli Price (03:15:53.559)
Um, which to me is a po- so my like personal letterbox like the way I do it is if it, if it hits three and a half stars, it gets the heart. Like I like it. Um, and then there's- yeah, everyone uses it different. Every once in a while I'll have a three star that I still give a heart because I'm like-

Zachary Lee (03:16:00.11)
Yep.

Zachary Lee (03:16:06.397)
Ah, I, you know, as a cyber, I was curious how people use the heart on letterbox. I don't really know how to use it. Yeah.

Zachary Lee (03:16:17.049)
You still give a heart, okay.

Eli Price (03:16:18.091)
It has like too many flaws for me to like give it that extra half star, but I still like it a lot sort of thing. So it still gets the heart. But yeah. Um, yeah, people use it in different ways. We were talking about, um, I think it's actually in the prestige in our movie news. We, um, we kind of talked about like, um, letterboxed habits and like how you, like some maybe interesting ways to use letterboxed. Um, and I think it's been a.

Zachary Lee (03:16:23.627)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (03:16:28.881)
That's great.

Zachary Lee (03:16:44.013)
Yeah, I like that.

Eli Price (03:16:47.791)
couple weeks since I recorded that and so I'm trying to remember, I'm pretty sure we like we said like maybe the like button would be an interesting way to like catalog your rewatchable films like you watch that and you're like oh I want to watch that again you throw the like on it and that for you maybe that means like all the ones that I like are ones that I think are very rewatchable but yeah I don't use it that way but I thought like oh that would be a cool way to use it.

Zachary Lee (03:17:05.71)
Ah, interesting.

Zachary Lee (03:17:12.88)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (03:17:17.965)
No, no, for sure. I'm just looking at your diary right now, just to see like, oh, what gets the coveted heart from Eli for his film. So that's great.

Eli Price (03:17:18.32)
Um, uh.

Eli Price (03:17:27.498)
Mine is boring because pretty much everything that is seven or above gets the heart. So it's a kind of boring way to use it. I'm way behind on my diary.

Zachary Lee (03:17:33.252)
No, but

Zachary Lee (03:17:37.017)
But that's interesting. Oh, that perpetually behind, that on the diary. I know, it's like, yeah.

Eli Price (03:17:42.591)
I'm so behind. I'm going to end up having just like, cause I like to write a little bit of something for everything I watch, but I get so backlogged that I'm like, okay, I just have to log them. I don't, I'm not going to have time to write on a big chunk of these, but yeah. Cause I've, I think, oh yeah. My last log is like from June and like, I have a list of all of them that I've seen with their dates, like that I keep running so that I can go back and enter them, but like it's like.

Zachary Lee (03:17:47.959)
Yeah!

Zachary Lee (03:17:57.118)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (03:18:02.179)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (03:18:11.524)
Yeah.

Eli Price (03:18:12.247)
I've probably seen like 80 movies since then, so there's like, there's no way.

Zachary Lee (03:18:17.795)
Yeah, you have to drop them, you know, very, very purposefully. It's great.

Eli Price (03:18:21.575)
Yeah, yeah. But yeah, it's probably as far as like where it falls in the Nolan films for me. I'm trying to pull up my list ranking list on letterbox. I mean, I have it like in the lower tier, but also like I have I don't have any Nolan movies ranked rated like below three and a half stars. And so.

Zachary Lee (03:18:34.224)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (03:18:40.895)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (03:18:47.354)
All right.

Eli Price (03:18:48.027)
It's kind of one of those things where even like the low lowest tier of no one is still like I think is really good. Like I would probably put this and insomnia pretty like similar there. After actually have like Dark Knight and Batman Begins at six and seven in my rankings. So like I have, you know, movies like Interstellar and Dunker.

Zachary Lee (03:18:54.991)
It's done.

Zachary Lee (03:19:01.551)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (03:19:09.846)
Oh yeah, no I'm seeing that, yeah.

Eli Price (03:19:16.719)
Like basically all of us like original scripts I have rated higher The adaptation stuff except for tenant but again, I need to revisit that Yeah, it it's um Yeah, he's just he's a good filmmaker, but Yeah, that's um, I guess we'll kind of wrap that up Next week, obviously we'll be talking about Interstellar

Zachary Lee (03:19:20.937)
rated higher than the Batman education.

Zachary Lee (03:19:39.909)
Love it.

Eli Price (03:19:45.575)
which as of now is my favorite, no one. Yeah, we'll see if it falls after this. I really doubt it, because I've seen, it's the one of no one's that I saw twice in theaters, because I loved it so much. So I don't think a rewatch is gonna knock it down at all. I think it's probably gonna stay right there at number one. But yeah, so.

Zachary Lee (03:19:49.118)
I was about to say, yeah, you're number one. There we go.

Zachary Lee (03:20:04.314)
Oh yeah.

Zachary Lee (03:20:10.229)
Yeah, it's probably gonna stay there. Yeah. I'm curious, where does Oppenheimer fit in here? I just noticed you had, I don't know if you've seen it yet. Or yeah, where? Oh, okay, got it. So, that's a, no, no. I was just wondering if it was one of the backlog ones. I'd be curious to see how that shakes up the rankings for you for everything, yeah.

Eli Price (03:20:19.491)
Yeah, I haven't seen it yet. Yeah, that's the problem. I haven't, I just, yeah.

Eli Price (03:20:29.447)
Yeah, yeah. We'll see. I don't know. Yeah. Um, just one of those things where like life and like just hasn't happened. Um, yeah. Um, yeah, we'll, we'll wrap up that talk. We'll take, um, a short break and come back with, uh, a really, really fun, um, movie draft to, um, in the month of October. Um,

Zachary Lee (03:20:39.153)
Totally.

Eli Price (03:20:59.063)
Maybe you'll get some fun movie recommendations from this draft to kind of watch as October's wrapping up. This will be releasing later in October. Yeah, so we will be back in just a second for that. So I'll see you in just a minute.

Zachary Lee (03:21:02.746)
That would be great.

Eli Price (03:21:22.619)
Okay, do you need to break or anything? You need to grab any more water, bathroom or anything? Okay, cool. No, I'm good to keep rolling and we can... Well, I'll start and I'll just probably let you share like, oh, like these are some movies that came out this year that I think you should like prioritize.

Zachary Lee (03:21:30.033)
I think I'm good. I have my water here and my drink. So yeah, but if you need to break or do anything. Let me know. So yeah. Yeah.

Zachary Lee (03:21:51.771)
Definitely.

Eli Price (03:21:53.019)
and then we'll jump into the movie draft. Okay.

Zachary Lee (03:21:56.197)
Fantastic, let's do it.

Eli Price (03:22:04.247)
Hey, welcome back from the break. Uh, yeah, I'm Eli Price here with Zachary Lee and we, um, just had, uh, a very, you know, the, the tagline is a podcast that does deep dives into directors and their filmographies. And we dive deep when we, when we talk about these movies and I love it. Um, so yeah, I enjoyed that conversation. Uh, and, um, yeah.

Zachary Lee (03:22:23.775)
Oh, definitely.

Eli Price (03:22:34.063)
But we're going to move on to a little bit of movie news, our movie news segment. The movie news today is the news of what Zachary recommends you go see that has come out this year. Yeah, I wanted to let Zachary just kind of give some recommendations of some of his, maybe like two or three of his favorite movies he's seen from 2023.

Zachary Lee (03:23:00.4)
Yeah.

Eli Price (03:23:02.959)
that you should go make sure you get at the top of your watch list. Yeah. What, what movies do you have up there for this year?

Zachary Lee (03:23:08.517)
Totally. Yeah, no, it's great too because I, well, great, also difficult because I've just come back from TIFF and so I had the privilege to go there. So I saw a lot of films there. So I'm gonna, and like, I attended Sundance virtually as well, so I'm gonna try to like have some to look forward to and then also, hopefully ones that will come out later. I'd say one, and I saw, you saw this one Eli, I love Rye Lane.

Eli Price (03:23:19.523)
Oh wow.

Eli Price (03:23:30.221)
Yeah.

Yeah, I love it.

Zachary Lee (03:23:37.997)
It's on Hulu right now, I think. So funny, so good. I think it was at Sundance, but I just saw it recently. It's the, you said it perfectly, I know. It's like maybe after, if you're listening to this, watch Dark Knight Rises and you're like, ooh, that's heavy, and you want something that's fun and witty. I recommend Rylane, I thought it was great. I think it's dropping actually on Netflix this.

Eli Price (03:23:38.846)
Oh yeah.

Eli Price (03:23:45.24)
The breath of fresh air.

Zachary Lee (03:24:05.905)
Friday, if I'm not mistaken, but the film Fair Play, it's with Alden Ehrenreich and Phoebe Dinnivore, I think I'm saying her name correctly, but it's from this director who, Chloe Dumont, I think, yeah, I believe I'm saying that correctly. And it's great, I mean, it's like, it's about a couple who they keep the relationship a secret at this hedge fund company that they work at, and then one of them gets a promotion.

Eli Price (03:24:07.272)
Okay. Yeah.

Zachary Lee (03:24:36.117)
So it's like an interesting dynamic, you know, like commentary on like, you know, on gender, the workforce, all that sorts of, those sorts of things. Both of those performances are great. I feel like if you really like Alden from Oppenheimer and Cocaine Bear, if you saw that, you'll get great content with him here. And then two more that I saw from film festivals that I think, I know at least one of them is gonna get a release date this year, but.

The first is this documentary called A Still Small Voice, which it's about, it focuses on hospital chaplains who are caring for patients at the height of COVID-19. And so I think, I mean, it just hit a lot for me, I think as someone who was involved with campus ministry, and it's just this intersection of, you know, how are we thinking about our faith, you know, the role of spirituality, where it meets great suffering.

I think it's just a very honest and heartwarming take on that. So I thought that was good. And then this film called American Fiction, which is directed by Cor Jefferson. It stars Jeffrey Wright. It's based off of this book by this author, Percival Everett. And it was one of those movies at TIFF where it was hard, you know you'll have to watch it again because everyone was laughing so much that.

Eli Price (03:26:02.606)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (03:26:02.841)
You know you miss certain lines of dialogue, but very, very clever script, very trenchant and biting. It's about, I think it's just very interesting to think about, it's like about minority authors, underrepresented minority authors, and the ways they feel like they may need to market themselves and their stories in order to be seen as relevant. So that's all I'll say for now. I think that comes out December. It was November.

It was it's getting a wider release in December, but yeah, sorry to ramble on a bit there But I think I would say those are my some of the wrecks that I really enjoyed

Eli Price (03:26:34.315)
Yeah. No.

Eli Price (03:26:40.067)
Yeah, I was like, as you were saying it, I was like pulling them up on letterbox and adding to watch lists because the, this American fiction one I have heard of, I just didn't have it on my watch list yet. So I made sure to do that. Yeah, because I had heard about Jeffrey Wright's performance and whatnot and that, and that he was great in it and stuff. So yeah. Yeah, that sweet. Thanks.

Zachary Lee (03:26:47.217)
to watch this.

Zachary Lee (03:26:52.981)
Yeah. It's great.

Zachary Lee (03:27:04.438)
Yes, so fun.

Eli Price (03:27:09.231)
Thanks for the recommendations. I was learning too. Live on air, adding stuff to the watch list.

Zachary Lee (03:27:11.161)
Yeah, for sure.

Zachary Lee (03:27:15.137)
Live on air? No, it's great. Yeah. I'd love to see your reviews when they go live too. So yeah.

Eli Price (03:27:23.363)
Oh, yeah, I appreciate it. But yeah, I kind of hinted at it earlier, but we've got a really fun movie draft. It's going to be different than any movie draft we've done before. So I hope we can both figure this out and do it how I've planned it in my mind. But yeah.

Zachary Lee (03:27:30.001)
Mm-hmm.

Zachary Lee (03:27:44.121)
Yeah, in life. Yep, yep.

Eli Price (03:27:52.035)
We'll pick like a category or a topic that is in a movie. And we'll just kind of go back and forth and draft movies that fall into that category. But this time, I wanted to do something related to horror, where in October, I couldn't think of a good movie draft relating to Dark Knight Rises necessarily, because we've already done the DC one. We've done the villains draft.

In the Dark Knight episode and so I was like man, what are we gonna do? and I was like, well, it's Coming to the end of October when this is releasing and so let's do a horror movie draft of some sort. So we kind of decided that we would do a horror sub-genre draft and so Basically what we're gonna do I found an article by no film school that

I can link it in the show notes if anyone's interested. But it kind of breaks down the subgenres of horror, probably not like all of the subgenres, but like the main ones. And so it has like main categories, and then like sub, main subgenres, and then like subgenres within the subgenre. And uh.

Zachary Lee (03:29:03.397)
the man was.

Eli Price (03:29:16.419)
in that article. But we're going to go with the main subgenres. So we're going to basically, what we're going to do is still the same concept. We want to draft the best team of movies so that we can win the votes when it goes public. But what we're going to do instead of just going back and forth and drafting from a big pool of movies, we're going to have to draft one movie in each of these subgenres.

Zachary Lee (03:29:29.217)
Yeah, there we go.

Zachary Lee (03:29:44.037)
There we go.

Eli Price (03:29:45.403)
And so we don't have to draft the genres in a particular order, but we do have to fill one movie per category. And so I'm going to list these categories so that everyone can know what they are. They are psychological horror, killer or slasher horror, gore or disturbing horror.

monster horror, paranormal, and then miscellaneous, which miscellaneous kind of covers stuff that doesn't necessarily fit into that other stuff. So when you can think of like there's horror comedy or there's like found footage horror and a few other like kind of like sub-genres that maybe don't necessarily fit into those others, those all fall under miscellaneous.

Zachary Lee (03:30:33.622)
Mm-hmm.

Zachary Lee (03:30:41.989)
Yep.

Eli Price (03:30:42.123)
And then I figured too we could get a wild card so that we could get an extra favorite in there. So that's one, two, three, four, five, six, seven. Seven choices that we've got to make there, seven movies. So yeah, I hope everyone is following what we're doing here. I hope I explained it clearly.

Zachary Lee (03:30:47.685)
There we go.

Zachary Lee (03:31:08.625)
It's great.

Eli Price (03:31:10.883)
Basically, we've got to draft one horror movie from each of these subgenres. And yeah. Um, so Zachary is going to kick it off with the first pick. Um, where are you going to go? There's, there's some extra strategy here cause you want to get the best films, but you also want to like figure out which category you want to put it in. Yeah.

Zachary Lee (03:31:31.621)
I know, right? And I will say it's interesting because I like, you know, per my chicken run story from earlier this episode, I think I was not big into the horror genre until honestly, I'd say last year, maybe the little bit the year before. So a lot of my horror watches are newer. So I don't know if that, I'm curious to see though how that'll work in my favor for the listeners of the...

Eli Price (03:31:40.536)
Yeah.

Eli Price (03:31:54.104)
Yeah, that's great though.

Zachary Lee (03:32:02.102)
established and shot podcasts if they're more traditional old-school horror film loyalists or they're down with the modern stuff too so we'll see how it lands.

Eli Price (03:32:11.531)
Yeah, it'll be a learning experience for me too, because I have no idea.

Zachary Lee (03:32:16.577)
Yeah, no, we're testing the feelers out, you know, for the doing some crowdsourcing info here. Um, that yeah, you know, I'll go, you know, I'll just go straight for the, for the gnarly, the gore disturbing film, you know, just because, you know, why not dive? Actually, wait, sorry, to me, can you cut that and go back? I realized maybe it's better. I should say the film first, and then I'll do the segment. Is that better? Or like,

Eli Price (03:32:19.332)
Yeah.

Eli Price (03:32:32.961)
Okay.

Eli Price (03:32:44.71)
It doesn't matter to me.

Zachary Lee (03:32:46.357)
Okay cool, you know what, I'll just do it, I'll just repeat it, it'll be fine. Sorry, I was, I think in my mind I was like, oh should I say the film first and then do the genre?

Eli Price (03:32:55.467)
No, I think either way is fine if you want to tease it with the category first or just go straight into the movie. It doesn't matter either way. It doesn't matter either way to me. No worries.

Zachary Lee (03:33:04.213)
Oh, go straight into it. Okay, cool, great. Sorry again for that. Yeah, hope this won't be too tough to edit out in the later part of it. But yeah, no, for my first pick, I'll go in line with the newer films. I'll go with Brandon Cronenberg's Possessor. So this was released in 2020. And yeah, it's, I mean, disturbing body horror he takes after his dad in a lot of ways, but has his own.

Eli Price (03:33:22.647)
Okay, yeah.

Zachary Lee (03:33:33.945)
you know, twisted take on it. I think Andrea Risenborough, right? And then Christopher Abbott are in it and phenomenal, great stuff. And so I'll slot that into the gore, disturbing film category for my first pick. So yeah.

Eli Price (03:33:50.315)
Yeah, yeah, I haven't seen that one. I'm trying to think too, like if I've seen any Cronenberg of him or his dads, I don't know that I have. It's just one of those kind of like, I don't have like an expansive like horror genre, like knowledge either.

Like I've tried to catch up with more and more over the years, but, um, but yeah, I don't, I don't think the Cronenbergs are, I don't think I've seen any of them. So yeah, that's definitely a blind spot for me. Um.

Zachary Lee (03:34:28.953)
Honestly, you will probably sleep better. I'm not, it's like, I like, once again, I can appreciate the film for the themes it has and it's trying to say, but it's one of those like, well, I guess I'll have to wrestle with my soul for a little bit now, having seen this. It's, yeah, but you know, curious.

Eli Price (03:34:31.823)
Ha ha

Eli Price (03:34:37.804)
Yeah.

Eli Price (03:34:43.775)
Yeah.

Eli Price (03:34:50.252)
Yeah, I caught up with a particular film this past week knowing that this was coming and feeling like, oh, I should watch this. And I feel like I would have slept better if I would have left it alone. But we'll see if I drafted at some point. I'm going to go with probably what I think is one of the just...

Zachary Lee (03:35:07.887)
Yeah.

Eli Price (03:35:17.243)
probably one of the most iconic horror movies. I'm gonna go with Psycho and the psychological horror. I mean, it's right there in the name of the movie, the genre. I just feel like Psycho and Hitchcock, for one, it's a master class in suspense building. And like, yeah.

Zachary Lee (03:35:25.293)
Mm-hmm. There we go.

Zachary Lee (03:35:30.294)
It's perfect.

Eli Price (03:35:47.53)
that psychological horror of...

just what's going on with old Bates and his mom. Like, yeah, it's very disturbing. So I just think it's, yeah, to me, it's a masterclass of suspense by the master of suspense, Alfred Hitchcock. So yeah, go psycho and...

Zachary Lee (03:35:58.745)
There we go.

Zachary Lee (03:36:14.915)
course.

Eli Price (03:36:17.664)
There are some really good ones I had written down for that category. So it was kind of hard to choose. But yeah, that's what I'm going to go with.

Zachary Lee (03:36:24.321)
Yeah, there we go. That's great. Yeah, I'll, ooh, okay, let me see here. Seeing you, you went out swinging with that one. So now I'm like, ooh, I gotta think about these other categories now. I'll go with, okay, so next film, older film. So one of the, I think probably, no, actually it might not be the oldest, maybe second oldest title that's on here for me. Also, near addition to my heart, as I saw it,

Eli Price (03:36:37.883)
Ha ha ha.

Zachary Lee (03:36:54.565)
I saw it for the first time this year, but I saw its sequel first and then I saw it. So I don't know if that was the right way to do it, but it is the 1992 film Candyman. So I, yeah, I saw it for the first time at a small arts theater in DC when I was staying there. And yeah, I mean, you know, and I love Nia DaCosta's film from a couple of years ago. I thought it was great. And you know, being from Chicago.

Eli Price (03:37:00.371)
Okay.

Eli Price (03:37:06.264)
Yeah!

Eli Price (03:37:20.027)
Mm-hmm.

Zachary Lee (03:37:22.645)
and having witnessed the gentrification and changing of the Cabrini Green neighborhood, a lot of the film really stuck to me. But I think, I don't know, I just, in similar themes of what we were talking about, Eli, in the podcast about generational sin and trauma and violence and what it looks like to have it, and like, you know, privileged people and like the way they like want to co-opt or turn.

Eli Price (03:37:31.461)
Yeah.

Eli Price (03:37:38.22)
Mm-hmm.

Zachary Lee (03:37:51.329)
other people suffering into a thesis or a project, and I don't know what they unleash with that. I feel like very timely and relevant and still very scary and fits neatly in the slasher genre, which is where I'll place my pick there for the next film. So yeah, so Candyman, the 1992, the first one that came out.

Eli Price (03:37:55.605)
Yeah.

Eli Price (03:38:05.717)
Yeah.

Eli Price (03:38:15.543)
Yeah, that was on my list for Slasher. I don't know if I would have drafted it, but necessarily because I have one or two more that I like a little bit more. But yeah, that is, I think that's probably one of my top Slasher films for sure. It's great. Yeah, I did see the kind of, I guess it's kind of like a, I guess it's a sequel.

Zachary Lee (03:38:35.343)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (03:38:45.89)
Yeah, spiritual sequel. Yeah, I don't know. F sequel, yeah.

Eli Price (03:38:47.712)
It feels like half reboot, half sequel. Because it's, yeah. But yeah, it was okay. I thought it was really well made. I didn't like some of the choices, but yeah, the original 92 version is very good. And like, some, yeah, just really good disturbing filmmaking.

Zachary Lee (03:38:57.051)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (03:39:16.481)
Yeah, exactly.

Eli Price (03:39:16.663)
going on in it. So yeah. Okay. Okay, this is playing out interesting because like, I feel like I can wait on ones that you've already drafted on categories, because you've already drafted in them. But then again, like you can draft, you might be able to draft a movie, you know, in a category, because some of them fit into multiple.

Zachary Lee (03:39:24.514)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (03:39:30.658)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (03:39:43.561)
Right, that was what was fun and interesting is like, oh, where do they like slot and finish? Like I could put, you know, I don't know, like Candyman into like, was that partly psychological? I don't know, you know, things like that. So yeah, or Monster even if you think about it in a way.

Eli Price (03:39:46.115)
Yeah.

Eli Price (03:39:55.353)
Yeah.

Eli Price (03:39:58.991)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's true. OK, where am I going to go here?

Eli Price (03:40:07.779)
You know, I think...

Eli Price (03:40:13.347)
I think I am gonna go ahead and just draft my favorite, I think what I would say is like my favorite horror movie ever in the miscellaneous category because it's a found footage film and that is the Blair Witch Project. I love the Blair Witch Project. It is like so creepy, so disturbing and like.

Zachary Lee (03:40:26.629)
There we go.

Zachary Lee (03:40:31.289)
Hmm. There we go.

Eli Price (03:40:42.675)
even just like the mythos around it of like people like thinking it was real when they saw it and like back in the day like yeah I just think it's like a really like a really good like piece of horror filmmaking but really just like a unique phenomena of like filmmaking in general in general terms so

Yeah, the Blair Witch Project, which was 99. It was in that very strong year of 1999. So, but yeah, I'll put it in miscellaneous, which covers the found footage genre.

Zachary Lee (03:41:18.213)
Wow, okay.

Zachary Lee (03:41:23.258)
We love it.

in miscellaneous.

Sure, no that's great. I have not seen that, but it's, you know, reputation precedes it, so I'm just very much, it's one that I wanna kinda get to soon. Yeah, okay, interesting. All right, so miscellaneous category there. I honestly, I thought you were gonna say like paranormal activity initially or something like that. I don't know, I don't even know if that's like shot in found footage or a horror world, which wouldn't, no, no diss to those films, but.

Eli Price (03:41:36.3)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (03:41:52.559)
Ha ha ha.

Zachary Lee (03:41:58.777)
I was like, oh yeah, Player Witch, like the revolutionary found footage horror film. Like, of course that would be, that would be awkward. Oh, this is tough. I, okay, now I'm like, like double checking. Like is this even?

Eli Price (03:42:02.995)
Right.

Zachary Lee (03:42:18.065)
Does it even count? I might come back to that later. I'll go with, okay, so in the vein of Blair Witch and found footage technique, maybe it applies. So I have another film in preparation for the sequel that came out this year to the film, which is what I found. I feel like all these legacy sequels are giving me an excuse to like.

the OGs for the first time, like, you know, things like that. But I'm going to go with the 81, the Evil Dead film for next pick. And, you know, we're talking about found footage, that sorts of thing. I don't know, I feel like not so much can be said about the fun camera angles that are there, you know, like, I think the way it's it embodies such an off kilter sort of

Eli Price (03:42:49.285)
Yeah.

Eli Price (03:43:09.764)
Mm-hmm.

Zachary Lee (03:43:16.289)
you know, ambiance and personality to it. I mean, it even goes further with like the second one. The whole tree stuff, I will caveat, I'm not a big fan of that. I don't really know what the whole point of that was in this movie. But as far as paranormal, which is where this falls under goes, I've really I don't know. It's like it's one of those films where like it's it could be miscellaneous because it's also very funny, but it's.

Eli Price (03:43:18.52)
Yeah.

Eli Price (03:43:44.94)
Mm-hmm.

Zachary Lee (03:43:45.857)
I don't know, like classic like cabin, friends, horror, like, you know, there's this like, there's no going back. You just have to fight them. There's a dread element that's there. I enjoyed that. So I'll go with Evil Dead for my paranoid.

Eli Price (03:44:00.507)
Paranormal, okay. Yeah, that's actually another blind spot that like, it's one of those that like, I probably, I might end up watching it this October sometime. It's one that I've always wanted to get around to. And I know for sure there's one of my friends that like loves like Sam Raimi horror. And so like you might've won a vote with that one for sure.

Zachary Lee (03:44:13.998)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (03:44:29.753)
There we go. I've got one vote potentially, maybe.

Eli Price (03:44:36.694)
Okay, so I think I know, I think at this point in the draft, like my strategy is pretty set. I'm going to...

Zachary Lee (03:44:46.513)
tested.

Eli Price (03:44:50.263)
I'm gonna go ahead and draft a movie that I caught up with, I think, last year or the year before, a classic horror movie in Frankenstein, the original Frankenstein, I wanna say 1931 in the monster category. I was like, honestly,

Honestly, I was watching some of these older monster movies because I was like, oh, I want to catch up with some of these classics. It was kind of like a more homework kind of endeavor. And I was actually blown away by Frankenstein. Like, the set pieces and stuff are definitely of its time, but somehow hold up and fit the atmosphere.

And then like the just the ideas that are being dealt with about humanity, what makes a human human, is really interesting. And like, even like there's moments of like, like really deep emotional like resonance in this movie that like totally caught me off guard.

Zachary Lee (03:45:57.136)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (03:46:12.622)
Yeah.

Eli Price (03:46:15.819)
And so it's become one of my personal favorites. And so yeah, I'm doing, yeah, Frankenstein and Monster.

Zachary Lee (03:46:20.622)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (03:46:26.489)
Which, what year was that one again? I know there's a couple, 31. Okay, great. I'm adding it to another blind spot, but the poster is classic, you know? And like, I feel like I've seen.

Eli Price (03:46:28.919)
1931. Yeah.

Eli Price (03:46:37.259)
Yeah, it honestly like it honestly blew me away. I was not expecting to love it as much as I did like I finished it and I was like man, that's I think I have it rated like a four and a half star Like so yeah

Zachary Lee (03:46:53.761)
Yeah, fantastic, great. Yeah, well, this is me just desperately trying to form connections and bounce off of between our picks. But I know it's a black and white film. Am I remembering that correctly? Okay. But in my mind, Frankenstein is always portrayed with some elements of green on, or Frankenstein, I pour some in the classroom, we say Frankenstein's monster is always portrayed with some elements of green on.

Eli Price (03:47:07.02)
Yes.

Eli Price (03:47:15.786)
Yeah.

Eli Price (03:47:20.334)
Right.

Zachary Lee (03:47:23.173)
And so that ties in nicely for my next pick, which is the 2015 film Green Room. So that was, who was that? Jeremy Saulnier is the director for that. It was another A24 film. So, you know, you kind of know what you're getting there, but it, I, man, I saw this for the first time last year, also on Hulu, which shout out Hulu. They have some great films just on there, both the original content and they're just the ones that they get.

Eli Price (03:47:31.566)
Okay.

Eli Price (03:47:39.055)
Mm-hmm.

Zachary Lee (03:47:53.021)
I, it's, it's about a kind of a punk band that travel are doing shows and then they end up doing this one show, which ends up being this bar where these neo-Nazis hang out, which is led by, was it Patrick Stewart as like the head neo-Nazi, which was just like, I don't know, played against hype for him. I'm just used to seeing him being like, you know, the elegant Professor X or Picard and he's like dropping f-bombs and like.

Eli Price (03:48:12.047)
Okay.

Eli Price (03:48:19.149)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (03:48:22.273)
saying questionable things all the time. So definitely different. And it's about their like fight to survive, I guess. And, you know, I don't know. It was, it's just like, you know, from the get-go, it's just very like tightly paced. I'm like double checking the Wiki here, but I think it's like, yeah, 95 minutes, you know? So it's like already great timing choice. It's like frenetically paced, brutal, I think.

Eli Price (03:48:31.553)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (03:48:44.153)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (03:48:51.897)
you know, very much like gets in your head too. Cause you know, so I'm slanting this under psychological because you're kind of like, you're in these confined areas and spaces and you're just like, how are these people going to escape? What have they gotten themselves into? I mean, sadly, very prescient commentary about, you know, alt-right, you know, extremists, or extremists of any sort of, you know, political party being in a space and how you...

Eli Price (03:48:58.934)
Okay.

Eli Price (03:49:14.488)
Yeah.

Eli Price (03:49:19.911)
Mm-hmm.

Zachary Lee (03:49:21.677)
You know, how do you fight that? And you know, for some people it's not to get too graphic, it's you take a box cutter to the stomach and that's how you win. But like, is that really the way we should win for the rest of time? I don't know. So all to say, Green Room, 2015 film, I was my pick for Psycho-Log.

Eli Price (03:49:29.581)
Yeah.

Eli Price (03:49:33.231)
Yeah.

Eli Price (03:49:39.927)
Yeah, yeah, that's another one that's been like floating around on my, my watch list for a while. Um, that I just haven't gotten to. So yeah, you're really like schooling me on my watch list. Um,

Zachary Lee (03:49:52.705)
Oh, you same with me. So, yeah. Right, neutral. Yeah.

Eli Price (03:49:55.123)
Yeah, well, I guess the feeling's mutual then. Yeah, okay, so this is my fourth pick. We're starting, we're going to start for sure. You started it with your pick, but we're going to have to start overlapping our categories now. Okay, I'm going to go with...

I'm going to go ahead and go with my movie that I caught up with last year that I really, really enjoyed. It was like both fun and really disturbing, which is maybe a spoiler of the category. I'm going to go with The Thing. The Thing is it's a great movie. Yeah, John Carpenter, just kind of like

Zachary Lee (03:50:35.534)
What a comment.

Zachary Lee (03:50:40.393)
Oh, yes, yes.

Zachary Lee (03:50:45.679)
So good.

Eli Price (03:50:51.659)
It's wild. Um, uh, it's crazy that Kurt Russell is in this movie, um, of all people. Uh, but yeah, it's, yeah, I mean, I think it fits for me and the gore disturbing, there's a lot of like body horror in this movie with the way this kind of like alien creature or, or organism, I guess, like distorts, like.

Zachary Lee (03:51:11.537)
100%.

Eli Price (03:51:21.707)
uh, living objects and really weird, disturbing ways. Um, so yeah, I think it fits nicely into that, that gore and disturbing category, uh, in my personal opinion. Um, yeah, really good movie. It's like, it's one of those things where it's like, it's very disturbing and has some interesting things to say about, um, you know, what we're willing to do, uh, when like.

pressed up against the wall with fear and how we treat each other, but also it's kind of fun in a way that only horror movies can be dealing with such deep, dark issues and also be fun at the same time. So yeah.

Zachary Lee (03:52:09.383)
Exactly.

Love that. No, I also had just caught up with it last, I think one of the theaters, they were like, was it like an anniversary or something last year? I think maybe. Yeah.

Eli Price (03:52:23.095)
Maybe, let's see, yeah, 1982, so that would have been the 50th or the 40th, yeah, 40th anniversary.

Zachary Lee (03:52:31.673)
The 40th, yeah. So I thought it was, I don't know, I thought that was also good. So that's a fun one. Great, I'll, okay, let me see here. I think for, speaking of one that's like both, well as you were saying, it's like disturbing, but also, I don't know, it's entertaining, enjoyable. I think this other one.

saw last year and occupy it's one of it's another it's a similar fusion but this time of genre of like the body horror but also teen coming of age romance so it's the it's uh lucas uh films guardinho's bones and all so i think it's uh taylor russell and simothy chalamet and it focused i mean it's funny it focuses on these two

Eli Price (03:53:24.015)
Mm-hmm.

Zachary Lee (03:53:29.217)
cannibals, lovers, and their journey of trying to like navigate and build a life where, you know, they're always fighting with these impulses that they have to feed, as they say, but also, you know, it's like element of like, this is how we're made. So who are we to deny how we're made? And then also being like, but, you know, we're ruined people's lives. And what does it mean to keep appetites and desire in check? So it's like, it's a very, it's like, make no mistake, it's like a very like,

When I say cannibal movie, I'm just like, okay, I guess we're really just gonna show you just notion on somebody's head or something, you know, like it'll go there, but it's very much like a, it's a road trip movie. It's a romance movie, you know, between these characters coming of age, you know, in a way with this twist. So it's a very like, I don't know, it's like, it's one of those like, it blends those, all those genres really well. So it's kind of hard to.

Eli Price (03:54:07.545)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (03:54:26.821)
place, you know, when I was thinking about it, I was like, is it it's gore, but it's not, you know, there's some psychological, you know, I don't know. So that's my miscellaneous bones and bones and all. So yeah.

Eli Price (03:54:36.088)
Okay.

Eli Price (03:54:39.799)
OK, cool. Yeah, I had heard good things about it. It came out last year, right? Yeah, I had definitely heard good things about it. And I haven't gotten around to seeing it myself. But yeah, it was definitely intriguing when I heard about it. I was like, oh, I might try to check this out. So I have, let's see.

Zachary Lee (03:54:46.349)
Yeah, 2022. So yeah, I think it was like November or something.

Eli Price (03:55:07.575)
We- you have two more and I have three more now. So there's the wild card which-

Eli Price (03:55:21.178)
Um... I need a slasher and I need a paranormal.

And okay, I think I know what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna go ahead and go with Paranormal, and I'm gonna go with Robert Eggers, The Witch. Or if you wanna have it with the two Vs, The Vivich. Ha ha ha. I.

Zachary Lee (03:55:33.721)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (03:55:43.584)
Ah, nice.

Zachary Lee (03:55:49.965)
The bitch, there you go. That's right.

Eli Price (03:55:57.151)
This film is one that kind of has grown in my estimation. Like, I've only seen it once, like a couple years ago. But it's grown in my regard of it, ever since I've seen it. Just like, every time I think back of it, the imagery of it, it's this like... So obviously Eggers is at this point known for like...

really being obsessive about getting the period and the language and the design and everything like exactly how it was in the setting of his movie. And it's this like...

Zachary Lee (03:56:28.793)
Mm-hmm.

Zachary Lee (03:56:58.535)
Sorry, I think I cut out there. I don't know why or like it just booted me off. Yeah, but you were saying yeah design

Eli Price (03:57:03.075)
That's weird. Yeah. No worries. I'll just jump back in.

Yeah. And, you know, it's when you watch The Witch, you're very much in its world, which is an impressive thing that Eggers does. I think The Witch is probably his best film of the I think there's three so far because he has The White House and Northman also.

Zachary Lee (03:57:16.313)
Mm-hmm.

Eli Price (03:57:38.263)
And it's my favorite of those three. And the way it deals with this, like the idea of cutting yourself off from community and the dangers you open yourself up to when you do that. Even if it's maybe for like, justifiable reasons or like, you know, at the end of the day, there's a bit of.

pride that comes with not being willing to give and take with a community. It's set in early America, and I'm pretty sure it's this Puritan community or some sort of Christian community, either Puritans or...

Zachary Lee (03:58:20.612)
Yeah.

Eli Price (03:58:33.411)
something like that. And he has a disagreement with like the elders of the community and he's basically like excommunicated from it, him and his family. And then like they're on the edge of these woods. There's like strange stuff happening in the woods. Their baby goes missing. And it's just like dealing with that idea of what happens when you separate yourself from community. And like...

Zachary Lee (03:58:51.054)
Hmm

Eli Price (03:59:03.559)
what sorts of horrors might you open yourself up to by doing that. Uh, super interesting and like really like disturbing, well-made movie. Um, yeah, so I definitely recommend that one. The Witch. I'm gonna take it. Did I say paranormal for it? Yeah, Witch. It makes more sense when you watch the film why it's in the paranormal category.

Zachary Lee (03:59:21.211)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (03:59:24.505)
Yes.

Eli Price (03:59:33.071)
but it's definitely... So you'll have to go watch it to find out why. I won't give anything away.

Zachary Lee (03:59:33.467)
Yeah, no, no.

Zachary Lee (03:59:40.991)
Yeah, I know. I feel like the AMC's near me. They're doing like thrills, like they're bringing back some of the class, like those horror movies. So I think I sadly missed that one, but I know it might be on Netflix or something. So I'll probably watch it. But that's yeah, that's a, you saying it's like a good reminder. Like, oh yeah, to catch that one. Um, okay. Yeah. Let me see here. So final two for me, I think I'll go with, so, okay. So you got the witch. I'll go, oh, I'm so torn here. I might have.

Eli Price (03:59:51.515)
Hmm.

Yeah.

Zachary Lee (04:00:10.607)
just be a game time decision. You know what, I'll go with the one I feel like I can speak more about at the moment. But it was not quite The Witch, but another, you know, there was this film, sleeper hit of last year, Barbarian. So Zach Creger directed that one. Yeah, oh, were you gonna say something, Eli, about that?

Eli Price (04:00:27.309)
Yeah.

Eli Price (04:00:31.307)
I was just going to say another like one that I have heard great things about, but I haven't gotten around to.

Zachary Lee (04:00:38.371)
Yeah, no, it's, oh, okay, it will, I will just say it is without, because I want you to be able to enjoy it without me telling the show too much. But like, it's a, there's a monster element to the film that I think what I enjoyed in particular about it, one was that it has a lot of twists and turns, you don't quite know where it's going. But it explores this idea.

I think in general, I think it's actually, or rather it fits into this canon that I've enjoyed lately of, when I think about monster movies, I've, one of the things that draws me to those types of films is this idea of like, the monsters being instruments of divine justice for the oppressed or underrepresented. And so, you know, I even think about like, I love Godzilla and I think it was very recently I learned it's like a allegory or connection, you know, with.

the atomic bomb and being dropped in Japan and everything. I guess that was there, but it was like, it's only been more recently, I've viewed those films through that social lens or sociological lens. So I'll just say without getting too into it, I think I like how Barbarian in its unique way fits into this canon. So that's my monster movie pick, I'd say. So yeah, that was released last year.

Eli Price (04:01:38.763)
Yeah.

Eli Price (04:02:02.399)
Okay, cool, yeah. Yeah, I guess we'll both maybe, it looks like we're gonna just both save our wild card for last. I'm gonna go with, yeah, I'm gonna go with the only category other than wild card that I have left is the killer slasher. This is one that I've struggled with enjoying in the past.

Zachary Lee (04:02:13.019)
For what? Yep, there we go.

Eli Price (04:02:32.211)
maybe similar with like the typical movie you think about with like the gore or body horror. But yeah, I've caught up with a few of these recently. Maybe I can mention others in honorable mentions, but I watched one recently that like shook me like to the core, I think.

It's like man, I'll it's one of those where you watch and you almost wish you didn't watch it but like our hat like but at the same time you're like man that was like phenomenal filmmaking I'm gonna go with the 74 classic of the Texas Chainsaw Massacre I Was like

Zachary Lee (04:03:07.023)
You didn't watch it.

Zachary Lee (04:03:13.92)
Hmm

Zachary Lee (04:03:22.423)
Oh, great. Have not seen, but I can understand the reaction to that.

Eli Price (04:03:31.483)
One of the things that like you don't really think about is like how sound can be horrifying and like the sounds in this movie are like It like just makes my skin crawl just like thinking about it. Um And uh, yeah, it's one of those that's like

I don't know, like there's probably more, the themes that it's dealing with are less like these deep emotional themes and more like maybe primal themes of like survival and the will to live and that sort of thing. But man, is it like a masterclass of setting like beauty in the background of like absolute.

disgusting horror, horror. Like, it's, um, cause there's scenes that you watch where there's, where if you like take out what's going on in the foreground, the background is like phenomenally beautifully shot, but then like you add back in what's going on in the foreground and you're like, oh, uh, yeah. Anyways, um, yeah, that's what I'm going with for, for Slasher.

Zachary Lee (04:04:25.688)
Oof.

Zachary Lee (04:04:41.22)
what's going on.

Zachary Lee (04:04:53.385)
No, that's a... Yeah, no, it's interesting because I think the other film that I've seen this, which I've not seen, maybe it's more pivot later, was that movie, Midsommar, which I haven't seen, but it's that same idea of beautiful backdrop with just like absolutely horrific stuff going on. So yeah, that'll be, it's like one of those things like daylight doesn't save you here, you know? You can watch this in broad daylight and you're just...

Eli Price (04:05:04.419)
Hmm.

Zachary Lee (04:05:19.003)
you're still gonna be disturbed when you watch it. Yeah. I guess for final selection, my wild card, I know this movie has its fans as well as its detractors, but I think the more I think about it, the more I love it. It's the 2021 James Wan film, Malignant.

Eli Price (04:05:21.478)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (04:05:44.703)
So this one was, I think just, I think it got a limited release, but then really got a life on HBO Max. But it's just such a fun, like, the way, you know, you don't expect some of the twists there. I think like James did this right after, yeah, this was after he directed Aquaman, which is like a billion dollar movie. So I firmly believe, I'm like, I mean, I liked Aquaman, but I'm like, I'm even happier that Aquaman

doing so well led to James being able to have the relational capital to be like, I just want to make this for me. And you're going to pay for it Warner Bros. because guess what? I just made you a billion dollars, you know, or more. So everything Yeah, like the I don't know, it's a it's a very, I think just, it's one of those movies that is funny in this in the ways that it commits fully to the kind of bonkers.

Eli Price (04:06:27.599)
Right.

Zachary Lee (04:06:44.039)
premise, the bonkers premise and all the characters, I think Annabelle Wallace is the main actress in it, but she, I think just some of the line deliveries, like I think it's easy in certain movies to be like, you're trying to go, you know, have each line be deeper or it's a double entendre of a greater theme, but they're just like saying the line straight. It's just a very like kind of has that B movie feel to it, but with great effects and actions. So yeah.

Eli Price (04:07:09.615)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (04:07:13.84)
Malignant, there's my wild card pick.

Eli Price (04:07:16.663)
Yeah, yeah, that's another one. Like, there's, I feel like I have like a running list of more recent, like horror movies that I just like haven't had the chance to catch up with. It's one of those things like, my wife is like, not only like, is she not interested in, she's like almost like, pretty much like anti-horror movie. Like, don't, like don't watch that in my house. So it's kind of like, it's kind of like, I'm like.

Zachary Lee (04:07:39.373)
It's.

Zachary Lee (04:07:43.245)
Right.

Eli Price (04:07:45.483)
Okay, I have to like, not talk about these movies with her at all, like not even mentioned. Uh, just cause like she's like, um, and it's not like, I don't think it's a flaw. I think it's, it's just like personality. She's just like, I'm not interested in knowing any of that stuff. Um, and I'm like, which I kind of like respect about her in a way, but also like, I really enjoy like digging into these movies and like figuring out why they're so disturbing.

Zachary Lee (04:07:50.599)
Yeah, no, no.

Zachary Lee (04:08:03.811)
No, I ain't.

Zachary Lee (04:08:12.923)
Totally.

Eli Price (04:08:15.903)
Um, and, uh, but yeah, that's, that's another one that I haven't had the chance to catch up with. Um, maybe it's because, uh, the past few octobers, I've done a lot of like catching up with older stuff and like have kind of overlooked the, um, the newer stuff. But, uh, yeah, I am going to go with something relatively newer for my wild card. It's, I guess you could say it's a, uh, a personal favorite.

Zachary Lee (04:08:29.934)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (04:08:41.412)
Yeah.

Eli Price (04:08:46.084)
It might still be my favorite Jordan Peele movie, and it's probably not the one most people would think I'm talking about. I'm going to go with us.

Zachary Lee (04:08:59.243)
Ah, there we go. We have an us lover, which is great. Here, let's see.

Eli Price (04:09:01.054)
Um.

Eli Price (04:09:04.935)
Yeah, I love us. I am under no like pretense that us doesn't have like if you really like think hard about it a ton of like strange like world building holes in it of like how does this work and how does this work, but I don't honestly don't care. And I don't think Jordan Peele does either. um because like really like the suspense of this movie and the design and

Zachary Lee (04:09:26.075)
Cheers.

Eli Price (04:09:34.499)
the characters, like everything about it, I just love. And I love that like, he's like making these like broad stroke, broad stroke, like interesting philosophical questions with what he's doing with it. That like, I don't know, I just like everything about the movie. And I think it's still maybe my, Nope is up there. I really appreciated Nope.

Get out I think is good, but a little bit more straightforward Which is I think can be a strong point too, but I personally enjoy the more like Ambiguous Stuff as far as like what is this movie about? Let me dig into it and us is definitely that so and then like Lupita Nyong'o's performance as

Both characters, her and her underworld self, it's just next level phenomenal. Like.

Zachary Lee (04:10:39.919)
I'm, yeah. Like if I'm ever making a case to the Academy for why Horace should be taking more seriously, it's like her performance there and then Mia Goth's performances and you know, like X or Pearl that I'm just like, you have these two, you know, women just bringing their age. Like what do you, you know, why are they not being recognized in this way, so.

Eli Price (04:10:54.682)
Yeah.

Eli Price (04:11:01.796)
Yeah.

It's funny because the reality is that horror movies is one of the things that keeps theaters alive. It doesn't matter if a horror movie is good or bad, people go see horror movies in the theater. So it's funny that the Academy just totally ignores the whole genre, basically.

Zachary Lee (04:11:21.826)
Oh yeah.

Zachary Lee (04:11:30.255)
Right. It's interesting because I was seeing that, you know, the new Exorcist movie that's coming out, I guess as we're recording this now, it would be coming out this week. So October 7th, like it's gotten some, it's getting hit hard critically, like it's October 6th. It's not going to do, it doesn't look like it got like a, you know, critically, it's not doing well, but it's still slated to like open to like a 51 million plus, I think, like debut. So it's like.

Eli Price (04:11:56.729)
Oh yeah.

Zachary Lee (04:11:58.863)
Yeah, as you said, these horror movies are critic proof, you know? Like people just want to go for a good time, so it doesn't matter if it's bad or good.

Eli Price (04:12:02.155)
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yep. And, and there is a sense in which like, um, I don't know, I was listening to something recently, I can't remember what it was, a podcast, but I don't remember which one where they were kind of saying like, it's, uh, it's a kind of this weird thing about horror movies where like, it's both true that it's the best thing ever to go watch a horror movie in a crowded theater.

but also the best thing ever to curl up on your couch alone in the dark and watch a horror movie. Both of those things are both true. And I was like, yeah, that is true. Like, yeah. But yeah, that was a really fun draft. I need to do more along these lines where you have different categories. I think...

Zachary Lee (04:12:36.018)
and

Zachary Lee (04:12:42.476)
Exactly.

Zachary Lee (04:12:55.471)
That was great.

Eli Price (04:13:01.247)
I was going to name a couple of honorable mentions. I wanted to shout out one that I think some people would say is not horror, but I put it in the horror category because I think it follows a lot of horror tropes with Alien. I would say Alien is a sci-fi horror. I think some people disagree, but yeah.

Zachary Lee (04:13:04.759)
Yes.

Zachary Lee (04:13:21.635)
Mmm, yes.

Zachary Lee (04:13:26.374)
100 percent.

Eli Price (04:13:29.687)
Um, anyway, I mentioned get out. Um, I think is a great movie. Um, hereditary I think is very good. Um, you know, Tony Collette's performance is like another example of what you were talking about, like this deserves an Oscar. Um, yeah, uh, I personally do like the original paranormal activity. Um,

Zachary Lee (04:13:38.009)
Hmm

Zachary Lee (04:13:43.439)
This is exactly.

Eli Price (04:13:59.783)
I think it's fun. It's funny, it's surprisingly funny, especially in the first portion. And then it just does some really well-crafted jump scare and that sort of thing. And it's probably a nostalgia thing. I went and saw it opening night in a crowded theater with a friend. And I have memories of that.

Zachary Lee (04:14:01.511)
Hmm.

Zachary Lee (04:14:12.027)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (04:14:23.215)
Yeah.

Eli Price (04:14:27.071)
Another one that I feel like was really overlooked, the 2020 The Invisible Man with Elizabeth Moss, it was phenomenal. Yeah. That one's directed by Lee Wanell, who hasn't done a whole lot, but yeah, that one was phenomenal. One...

Zachary Lee (04:14:35.163)
Oh yeah, great one. Also in us, right? Yeah, and she was.

Eli Price (04:14:57.679)
One from this year that I've mentioned in a past episode is Skin of Mourink. I really enjoyed. It's kind of one of those that it's hard for me to like recommend because I think like it's going to be like either you absolutely hate this or really love it. Like I did. Um, and, uh, yeah, I don't know if you've seen it and where you stand, but.

Zachary Lee (04:15:04.074)
Yeah

Zachary Lee (04:15:15.621)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (04:15:21.215)
I have not seen it and it's like for that reason where I'm like, some people, they're like, they just found this the most maddening thing ever. And I'm just, this is one of those like insert cinema is so back memes, right? But I'm just like, it's one of those like, Oh, can I, can I sit through something like that? Maybe I've heard good things from people I trust like you, you know, and others. So I'm like, maybe it is worth it. But yeah, it's.

Eli Price (04:15:24.268)
Yeah.

Eli Price (04:15:28.491)
Yeah.

Eli Price (04:15:33.007)
Ha ha.

Eli Price (04:15:38.86)
Yeah.

Eli Price (04:15:45.359)
It's I think it's one it might be the biggest like differential between the actual like letterbox score and what I rated it From like all my movies. It has a 2.9 on letterboxed Which generally movies that fall below 3 I tend to stick stay away from but I rated it 4 out of 5 I really enjoyed it

Zachary Lee (04:15:53.785)
Oh yeah.

Zachary Lee (04:15:58.468)
Ooh, that...

Zachary Lee (04:16:02.979)
Yeah.

Ooh, there we go, yeah.

Eli Price (04:16:10.752)
The Night of the Living Dead. Great. Classic.

Zachary Lee (04:16:12.569)
That's fantastic. A blind spot for me, but I've heard great things about.

Eli Price (04:16:16.115)
Um, mm hmm. The there's two Nosferatu's that I think are both phenomenal. The original 1922 version and, um, Warner Herzog's, um, version from 1979 is really, really good too. Um, yeah, those are, I guess those are some, I could go on. Cause there, you know, I have a big list of horror movies that I have ranked.

Um, on letterbox, but yeah, I'll kind of stop there. Did you have any, maybe a couple that you wanted to shout out?

Zachary Lee (04:16:47.759)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (04:16:52.067)
Yeah, no, I will say it's funny, because I know Robert Eggers is doing a Nosferatu remake. So maybe once I see a trailer or product or press photos, that'll be like, okay, I gotta do my Nosferatu catch up before I see the new one.

Eli Price (04:16:58.562)
Yeah.

Eli Price (04:17:05.483)
Yeah, the original is like is surprisingly like very eerie and like effective. Um, like when you look at like stills of it, you're like, oh, this is really cheesy, but when you actually watch it, you're like, wow, how did he make this like cheesy looking dude be so like effectively like creepy and eerie?

Zachary Lee (04:17:16.561)
Mmm, okay.

Zachary Lee (04:17:33.599)
Yeah, no, that's great. I'll keep an eye for that. Yeah, you know, honestly, I feel like in the monster category, I were the most honorable mentions there, because I really enjoyed the, there's this 2019 film by Alexandre Aja called Crawl. It's like a, it's a, yeah, about a swimmer and her dad, and they're trapped in their house in Florida. That's about to.

Eli Price (04:17:44.015)
Hmm.

Zachary Lee (04:18:03.439)
you know, get hit by a hurricane and they have to fight off crocodiles. And it's just like, I don't know. I just really was a crocodiles or is it alligators? I think it is. It is alligators. I'm sorry. Yeah. But I thought that was so fun. Actually, that has the whole place in my heart because that's the first movie I locked that letterbox. It's like back in 2019, it was like, you know, crawl. It was the first thing I did. So maybe there's some nostalgic bias there. But I love I mean, and this one probably doesn't count as

Eli Price (04:18:11.043)
Yeah, I think it was a crocodile. Yeah, alligator.

Eli Price (04:18:20.88)
Okay.

Zachary Lee (04:18:32.855)
or even though like maybe generally the franchise is there similar with Alien. But I thought the Prey movie for the Predator like prequel film set and like I thought that was so fun, very well done. Not once again on Hulu, I thought that was great. And then, yeah, I think just two more. I think for psychological, Rebecca Hall's film, The Resurrection, that was also with Tim Roth, but.

Eli Price (04:18:41.36)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Eli Price (04:18:46.871)
Mm-hmm.

Zachary Lee (04:19:02.075)
Thought that was very, yeah, I don't know. It was, you know, a lot of movies these days, you know, horror movies, the shtick is like, it's about trauma, you know? Like, and then it's like a meme in a way, but the way, I'll just say the way she, she does a great performance there, the way she embodies and explores out the theme. She didn't direct or anything, but I think she was a producer, executive producer on it. But I really enjoyed her.

Eli Price (04:19:10.561)
Yeah.

Eli Price (04:19:26.532)
Mm-hmm.

Zachary Lee (04:19:31.023)
there, exploring that theme. And then what is one more? Annihilation, the Alex Garland from 2018. So good, that was actually one of the, on that article that you'll link in the show notes, that was one of their recommendations for Miscellaneous. And I was like, oh yeah, that one, you know, demon bear that mimics human voice. Like that's nightmare fuel right there. So I'll slide, that'll fit in very nicely. So yeah.

Eli Price (04:19:35.971)
Yeah, Annihilation is fantastic.

Eli Price (04:19:51.248)
Yeah. It is.

It's funny for that one, like I saw that and I was like, Annihilation? And I was like, yeah, I guess it is horror, but that, I didn't really put it on my list because I was like, I don't usually think about that as a horror movie because like, especially like the way it ends, it like reads way more as a sci-fi movie to me.

Zachary Lee (04:20:14.787)
Yeah.

Eli Price (04:20:25.935)
than a horror movie, but I can definitely see how like you could definitely say like oh well it's still a horror movie. Yeah. Yeah, I think that I did, I had two more that I forgot to mention. You mentioned trauma and I was like oh yeah, I didn't mention my other choice for Slasher that I was trying to decide between. I really like A Nightmare on Elm Street.

Zachary Lee (04:20:43.308)
Yes. No, sure.

Zachary Lee (04:20:56.566)
Mmm. Yeah.

Eli Price (04:20:57.42)
I think it's really well done. It's a, the whole like dream world thing, maybe is like inconsistent in how it works, but I mean, it's a dream world who says it has to be consistent. But I feel like it's actually like a clever workaround to like how these killers usually like get around way too quickly in these movies.

Zachary Lee (04:21:09.851)
There we go.

Eli Price (04:21:24.279)
And it's like, well, he's a dream. So like, of course he can pop up anywhere. Um, but, uh, but yeah, I think nightmare Elm street is good. And I would actually like, I would, my experience of David Lynch's eraser head was very much a horror experience. My skin was crawling that whole movie. Um, uh, yeah, it's a very disturbing movie in my opinion. Um,

Zachary Lee (04:21:28.583)
There we go.

Zachary Lee (04:21:40.323)
Oh, that's right. Mm, fair. Haven't seen, but yeah. Oh, wow.

Zachary Lee (04:21:51.636)
Interesting. Yeah.

Eli Price (04:21:54.787)
But yeah, I'll read through the final list. Zachary took Possessor in Gore, the 1992 Candyman in Slasher, the Evil Dead in Paranormal, Green Room in Psychological Bones and All in Miscellaneous, Barbarian in Monster, and Malignant for his Wildcard. I went with

Zachary Lee (04:21:59.675)
Yep.

Eli Price (04:22:24.963)
Psycho and Psychological, the Blair Witch Project and Miscellaneous, Frankenstein and Monster, The Thing and Gore, The Witch and Paranormal, the Texas Chainsaw Massacre and Slasher, and Us from a Wildcard. And I think we built a pretty great list of horror movies here together.

Zachary Lee (04:22:47.043)
Yeah, I know. I'm so excited to see the poll and hear people chime in with their other recs.

Eli Price (04:22:52.112)
Yeah, for sure. Yeah, that'll be fun. But, yeah, that's our movie draft section. Do you have a recommendation of the week?

Zachary Lee (04:23:06.555)
Yes, great cue. I will say it will have been out by the time I know this episode releases, but I think one that I still, you know, another film rec that I thought was really great, was able to catch it when I was at TIFF in Toronto. But it's the Royal Hotel. It's by director Kitty Green. So she, you might know her from the film she did in 2019 called The Assistant with Julia Garner. But

Eli Price (04:23:30.979)
Yeah!

Zachary Lee (04:23:32.447)
Yeah, so this is a next film that she's done since that movie. And it stars Julia Garner again, so that too was back, and adds in Jessica Henwick, who I think you most recently probably saw from like Matrix Resurrections and the Glass Onion film. But yeah, it's very, you know, like it's about these two girls who go to work in this mining

Eli Price (04:23:41.819)
Mm-hmm.

Zachary Lee (04:24:02.031)
the patrons are men. And so it very quickly becomes a, you know, fight for survival as the misogyny goes from, you know, a little more kind of subtle to more overt and then becomes aggressive. So it's, you know, it's one of those like thriller realism films and it carries a lot, certainly thematically from the assistant, but I think it's just great to see someone, you know, like, you know, Kitty Green.

Eli Price (04:24:21.965)
Mm-hmm.

Zachary Lee (04:24:30.731)
engage in like a genre type film, you know, and like definitely has those elements where you're thinking of, you know, those social commentary that was great in the assistant, but I thought the way was, you know, she just made a fun, thrilling, good movie. So perfect for your October watch if y'all are looking for a new psychological film to add to the list.

Eli Price (04:24:33.369)
Yeah.

Eli Price (04:24:45.945)
Yeah.

Eli Price (04:24:51.755)
Yeah, it's funny because, um, the assistant actually like has a ton of like suspense built into it. Um, I'm like thinking back on watching that. It, I loved that movie. It was, um, it was really fantastic. Um, kind of one of those like surprise, like movies from that year that I remember like hearing about and I was like, Oh, I'll check this out. And then I was like, wow, that was phenomenal. You know,

Zachary Lee (04:25:00.48)
Exactly.

Zachary Lee (04:25:14.687)
Exactly.

Zachary Lee (04:25:19.867)
That was great, yeah.

Eli Price (04:25:21.419)
Um, yeah, uh, I'm going to recommend, um, it would have, it will have been out for a while at this point. Um, but, uh, I'm going to recommend, I caught up with all of, uh, Wes Anderson's, uh, shorts that he released on Netflix. Um, I, um, I was like giddy with anticipation, um, all the way up until they released and,

Zachary Lee (04:25:38.623)
Nice, I've not seen them yet, nice.

Eli Price (04:25:51.231)
man uh they're phenomenal like works of art um in my opinion um like they work in they work in such a degree where like you could close your eyes and listen and it would be like phenomenal or you could like turn the sound off and watch and it would be like

Well, to a certain degree of phenomenal, there's certain points where you have to have the narration, but that's kind of like the point. I think to it is like that, like that metatextual literary adaptation element of them. But yeah, I think they're just like. Just like, you know, typical of West phenomenally crafted, like, um, make you, they make you use your senses in interesting ways. I think with like.

Zachary Lee (04:26:24.079)
Right.

Eli Price (04:26:48.247)
showing you some things and making you imagine other things. And, like, not just like forcing you to imagine things, which is something I think that Roald Dahl was interested in. So, like, it feels true to his work, like these adaptations, but yeah, they're phenomenal. I was, and I'm...

Zachary Lee (04:26:51.929)
Yeah.

Zachary Lee (04:27:15.015)
Great.

Eli Price (04:27:17.707)
They're short enough where like they're really easy to like revisit. So I probably will. Um, yeah. Did you catch up with them yet?

Zachary Lee (04:27:22.043)
That's great. Yeah.

I was about to, no I haven't, I've been wanting to. I think like, I was wondering what you would think, like binge them all at once, you know, like one after the other, or do you think maybe it's good to like, you know, maybe sit with one each day? I've heard different takes, I'm curious, like people who are watching it as they release sort of a thing.

Eli Price (04:27:36.058)
Yeah.

Eli Price (04:27:42.219)
Yeah, I haven't really thought about it. Yeah. Yeah, I watched the first two, the days they released, and then I watched them with my wife, and then we watched, I think we watched the last two on the same day. Yeah, I don't know. I don't, I wouldn't, honestly, I wouldn't say there's a particular way that maybe makes it better.

unless you just kind of want to like sit and reflect with it, then like maybe space it out. But like, I don't know, to me, they all work pretty like straightforwardly. Like the emotions you're supposed to feel are mostly felt within the confines of the film. And so like, I don't think they necessarily call for like,

this deep reflection after you watch them because like what they're doing in the midst of the film, like you feel everything you're supposed to feel as it's like taking you through it, if that makes sense. Which I think is something like special about it. So yeah, I would, I would be of the opinion that it just depends on how excited you are to watch them.

Zachary Lee (04:28:51.771)
Yeah. Don't definitely.

Zachary Lee (04:29:08.134)
Yeah.

Eli Price (04:29:08.747)
If you want to watch them all like in one sitting, then go for it, because they're great.

Zachary Lee (04:29:13.447)
Okay, great. No, I've been, yeah, they were on my radar. So I'm like.

Eli Price (04:29:18.071)
Yeah. Yeah, I'll probably, um, at some point do an episode. Um, you know, I've thought about that, like, Oh, well, when directors that I've covered before come out with something new, um, I guess I need to jump back and do, do an episode on it. So I'll probably at some point put out an episode on those, maybe, um, maybe a solo episode or I might try to bring on a guest we'll, we'll have to see. But yeah.

Zachary Lee (04:29:30.179)
Yeah, I'd do it.

Zachary Lee (04:29:35.759)
Yeah.

Eli Price (04:29:46.231)
Yeah, that's all I have. Zachary, I would love for you to kind of plug where people can follow you and find your work.

Zachary Lee (04:29:50.886)
Yes.

Zachary Lee (04:29:56.439)
Yeah. Thank you so much. No, this is great. I have on letterbox, which is kind of where you can get my like quick, as I share, I have a backlog of stuff, a quick, you know, reviews, reactions. You can, that's, you can find me on Z Lee 729. That's my username. So that'll, I'll be there. And then my Twitter or X, whatever you want to call it. Probably by the time the episode drops.

it'll have changed to something else, but handle there right now is a Zach Aroney 22. So that's Z-A-C-H and then Aroney 22. So you can find me there. And yeah, I'll usually, that's usually where I'll share the articles and pieces that I've written. And so, yeah, I know it's, you know, it's fall film festival season, lots of fun, good stuff there. So keep, yeah, that'll, that'll be kind of where I'll share a lot of my articles and posts.

Eli Price (04:30:23.727)
Ha ha.

Eli Price (04:30:38.692)
Yeah, yeah.

Eli Price (04:30:45.22)
Mm-hmm.

Zachary Lee (04:30:50.547)
usually under the letter box when I log a film, if I've written something or, you know, when I log Dark Knight Rises, I'll link to the show notes here and then, you know, I'll link to the episodes. So you can kind of see if I've written stuff on it there too. So yeah.

Eli Price (04:30:58.649)
Yeah.

Eli Price (04:31:03.483)
Cool. Yeah, that's always helpful. It's like, well, just go follow me here and you'll find everything you need. Love it. Well, Zachary, I really enjoyed having you on for this episode. The Dark Knight Rises talk was fun. The Horde draft was fun and got some rec, good recommendations from you. So yeah, I just appreciate it all around coming on and

Zachary Lee (04:31:10.935)
everything you need. It's great.

Zachary Lee (04:31:21.572)
Yes.

Zachary Lee (04:31:28.184)
I wish.

Eli Price (04:31:33.035)
Yeah, it's been fun. I think we're done. I think this is it. Ha ha ha.

Zachary Lee (04:31:35.659)
Yeah. Thank you so much for having me on. It was great. Looking forward to hearing the other episodes too.

Eli Price (04:31:41.679)
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so that's all we have for you this week. I'm Eli Price for Zachary Lee. You've been listening to The Establishing Shot.